Ukraine and Poland - a common future ?

[Zbyszek]

Misha, there is a chance that we can agree on one thing:

Poles and Russians sent hundred thousands (if not millions) of wise, creative people to Ukraine and they did a great deal of wonderful work on upbringing the civilization level of this place.

Ukraine is a wonderful place on Earth and it could not be overlooked by its neighbours. Land, people, nature, Ukrainian hospitability, songs (dumka▓s!) are just fairy tale (and we love all these things in Poland).

At the same time the governments of Rzeczpospolita and Muscovy/Russia generated a lot of harm and misery in Ukraine shattering Ukrainian dreams of freedom.

Ukrainians deserve to be absolutely independent, without any molesting for union with Russia or Poland.
Misha, if you recognize the above, your posts will be more sensible and acceptable to Ukrainians.
TeLWan failed to accept this but maybe he will finally do so.

I will say 101-th time that Poland sympathizes with truly independent Ukraine within its present borders and expects Russia to follow Poland▓s example.

[Zbyszek]

Misha was careless enough to supply an unfortunate example of historic evidence by referring to a splendid Gogol▓s novel.
Gogol was a Ukrainian romantic writer of unusual imagination, using Russian language. He did not differ much from Pushkin, Mickiewicz, Byron or Goethe as it comes to processing history. Everyone versed in literature knows it perfectly. Now, our eager Misha gives us a history lesson based on a poetic fantasy. Give me a break, Misha┘ In a way you disclosed your sources. Your last post was quite instructive for understanding your understanding. ⌠Taras Bulba■ is a literary masterpiece, that▓s correct. It was considered anti-Polish for some time, a pretty stupid notion. It has been published in Poland and it was received with interest and surely not with an outrage.

Let me support my opinion by John Cournos:
All of Ukraine took on its colour from the Cossack, and if I have drawn largely on Gogol's own account of the origins of this race, it was because it seemed to me that Gogol's emphasis on the heroic rather than on the historical--Gogol is generally discounted as an historian--would give the reader a proper approach to the mood in which he created "Taras Bulba," the finest epic in Russian literature. Gogol never wrote either his history of Little Russia or his universal history. Apart from several brief studies, not always reliable, the net result of his many years' application to his scholarly projects was this brief epic in prose, Homeric in mood. The sense of intense living, "living dangerously"--to use a phrase of Nietzsche's, the recognition of courage as the greatest of all virtues--the God in man, inspired Gogol, living in an age which tended toward grey tedium, with admiration for his more fortunate forefathers, who lived in "a poetic time, when everything was won with the sword, when every one in his turn strove to be an active being and not a spectator." Into this short work he poured all his love of the heroic, all his romanticism, all his poetry, all his joy. Its abundance of life bears one along like a fast-flowing river. And it is not without humour, a calm, detached humour, which, as the critic Bolinsky puts it, is not there merely "because Gogol has a tendency to see the comic in everything, but because it is true to life."

Daragoy Misha, your example is like your thinking √ mythical and careless for historic truth. If truth lacks colour, you colorize it. Deplorably, you lack Gogol▓s greatness and depth in magic description. Moreover, you definitely lack his humour. Please, read Johnstruthers's posts, they are really funny and good.
Misha, switch to HISTORIC sources, please. You can use Mikhail Heller▓s Istorya Rissiyskoy Impyeryi. I have it in Polish. Quite an interesting book written by a Soviet dissident. Bye



[Edited by Zbyszek on 8th February 2003 at 23:29]

[Dodo]

Gogol... He said once:
⌠яЙЮФС БЮЛ, ВРН Ъ ЯЮЛ МЕ ГМЮЧ, ЙЮЙНБЮ С ЛЕМЪ ДСЬЮ, УНУКЪЖЙЮЪ ХКХ ПСЯЯЙЮЪ. гМЮЧ РНКЭЙН РН, ВРН МХЙЮЙ АШ МЕ ДЮК ОПЕХЛСЫЕЯРБЮ МХ ЛЮКНПНЯЯХЪМХМС ОЕПЕД ПСЯЯЙХЛ, МХ ПСЯЯЙНЛС ОЕПЕД ЛЮКНПНЯЯХЪМХМНЛ. нАЕ ОПХПНДШ ЫЕДПН НДЮПЕМШ аНЦНЛ Х, ЙЮЙ МЮПНВМН, ЙЮФДЮЪ ХГ МХУ ОНПНГМЭ ГЮЙКЧВЮЕР Б ЯЕАЕ РН, ВЕЦН МЕР Б ДПСЦНИ■.
"I say you I don't know myself what a soul I have - khokhol's or russian. I know only that in no way I would give any advantage nor to an Ukranian over a Russian neither a Russian over an Ukranian. Both natures are gifted generously by the God and every of them contains what the other doesn't have."


[Edited by Dodo on 9th February 2003 at 01:32]

[Halina]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dodo

[i]

"Democratic laws of Poland..." he he
In the Recz Pospolita of Bogdan Chmelnitsky's time there was the most cruel serfdom in Europe including Russia. Polish feodal lords had the right not only to buy and sell peasants but to kill them without any restrictions (in Russia they NEVER had this right). Impalement was quite common punishment. Peasants had to work for their lords more than 200 days a year. They were but slaves. As to Ukranians the Polish called them "cattle" and so treated them as a cattle. No doubt if Ukraine remained as a part of Poland Ukranians as a nation now just wouldn't exist.

So sorry no idyl in the ralationship between Poland and Ukraine never existed.

[Edited by Dodo on 8th February 2003 at 13:52]

Dodo,

- Are you trying to tell me that Rzeczpospolita (The Royal RES PUBLICA, where - unlike in any other European country of the 16th century onwards - kings were ELECTED by the majority) is somehow comparable with Russia... ?

- Are you suggesting maybe that the 3rd May Constitution was NOT an excuse of why Catherine the Great decided to finally 'kill' Poland, so much was she afraid of the Enlightement and civil rights embodied by the very Constitution - the FIRST constitution in Europe created in POLAND?)

- Are you maybe trying to tell me that it was US POLES who partitioned Russia and sent MILLIONS of Russians to Siberia in the 18-th, 19th and 20th centuries?

- Are you trying to convince me/us that it was Poland that killed 15,000 Russian officers, priests, professors and civil servants in Katyn,Koziels and Starobielsk and next lied to the world that it was Germans who had allegedly done that ?

- Are you trying to suggest that it was Ukraine that starved 6 million of her citizens to death and - if it were not enough - poisoned herself by nuclear leak in Chernobyl?

- Are you trying to tell me that it was Poles that tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of Russian patriots who had previously fought the Nazis ?

Honestly, Dodo and Misha/Last Word, you have just ridiculed youreslves. There is no love lost between Ukraine and Poland, but any comparison between the old Polish Commonwealth and Russia is a farse. Our mentality - that of a Russian and a Pole is extremely different. The difference is crucial and contained in a nutshell of a word - RES PUBLICA, a notion which remained an enigma to an avarage Russian for centuries and I dare say - it still is.

The only legacy left by the so called Russian Empire is; bitterness, poverty and anger as well as something Cathy rightly once described as 'boorishness'. Personally, I think the worst of all is HOMO SOVIETICUS - someone who has no respect for the rights of an individual, for liberty, for education and for human life. Do not fool yourselves; The Russian 'Empire' will never ever be remembered in the annals of history in the same way the Roman, or the British empires are.

Or YES, the Jagiellonian Commonwealth for that matter. When Poland experimented with democracy, the word 'Russia' hardly even existed in Europe and I mention this not to say Russia is some complete nonentity, but to point out to you that the long tradition of Polish democracy, love for libery and civil rights as well as Solidarity are a bunch of relics that we'll always cling to. So, please, spare yourselves lectures on democracy. Maybe, try and solve your Chechen conflict first, no?

And last but not least, sadly I do not agree with Zbyszek that Russians LIBERATED Poland. I pay tribute to the avarage Russian soldier, but the so called 'Russian liberation' in the aftermath of WWII was nothing, but another bloodbath and re-occupation of Poland by Soviet politicians that - when they stood on the Kremlin balcony to watch the 1st May parade - all looked like Asiatic warriors of Gengis Chan, or fat, obscene drunk and murdurous men wearing huge fur caps and thick coats, which would expose their pot bellies nicely filled with sausage and vodka ( the rest of the population were starving).

So much for theRussian 'Empire'.

[Dodo]

Dodo,

"Are you trying to tell me that Rzeczpospolita (The Royal RES PUBLICA, where - unlike in any other European country of the 16th century onwards - kings were ELECTED by the majority) is somehow comparable with Russia"
You can't disprove that the Polish serfdom was the most cruel in Europe including Russia. Impalment, right of sword.... Your lord killed, tortured and exploited Ukranian peasants with the incredible cruelty. So I don't care what a constitution you had that allowed you to do so.

- Are you suggesting maybe that the 3rd May Constitution was NOT an excuse of why Catherine the Great decided to finally 'kill' Poland, so much was she afraid of the Enlightement and civil rights embodied by the very Constitution - the FIRST constitution in Europe created in POLAND?)
Again. When Poland was a strong state it was a ruthless oppressor to Ukranians and agressor to Russia. So again. Don't try to pretend innocence.
"Are you maybe trying to tell me that it was US POLES who partitioned Russia and sent MILLIONS of Russians to Siberia in the 18-th, 19th and 20th centuries?"
Russia also contrary to Poland gave to Ukranians earth and the possibility to keep their culture. In Poland Ukranians didn't have a chance.

- Are you trying to convince me/us that it was Poland that killed 15,000 Russian officers, priests, professors and civil servants in Katyn,Koziels and Starobielsk and next lied to the world that it was Germans who had allegedly done that ?
There are different theories of it. Personally I am not quite sure it was done by Russian.
"Are you trying to suggest that it was Ukraine that starved 6 million of her citizens to death and - if it were not enough - poisoned herself by nuclear leak in Chernobyl? "
What are you speaking about. It were Russians who broke the instrucions working at the station? Rude violations of the rules of safetey by the staff was the main cause of this accident.
⌠ Are you trying to tell me that it was Poles that tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of Russian patriots who had previously fought the Nazis ?■
How does this theme concern the discussed issue? May be we also ought to remember how the Polish killed thousands of Jews during WWII or about 2 million 800 000 jews betrayed by the Polish and given to German butchers by them? Or may be about occupation of a part of Czechia by Poland in 1938 (Teshinsky district)? What else crimes of Poland do you want to remember?


"Honestly, Dodo and Misha/Last Word, you have just ridiculed youreslves. There is no love lost between Ukraine and Poland, but any comparison between the old Polish Commonwealth and Russia is a farse. Our mentality - that of a Russian and a Pole is extremely different. The difference is crucial and contained in a nutshell of a word - RES PUBLICA, a notion which remained an enigma to an avarage Russian for centuries and I dare say - it still is. "
Leave this idiotic snobery. Poland in no way was a pioneer of democracy. Russia had various ancestors including Novgorod Respublic and other cities with Veche (public meetings traditions). Modern Russia is in not less degree a democracy than Poland.

"The only legacy left by the so called Russian Empire is; bitterness, poverty and anger as well as something Cathy rightly once described as 'boorishness'. Personally, I think the worst of all is HOMO SOVIETICUS - someone who has no respect for the rights of an individual, for liberty, for education and for human life. Do not fool yourselves; The Russian 'Empire' will never ever be remembered in the annals of history in the same way the Roman, or the British empires are."
The legacy of Russian/Soviet Empire were great literature, great music, great arts, great science, great achievements in technologies, great system of education and medical services.

"Or YES, the Jagiellonian Commonwealth for that matter. When Poland experimented with democracy, the word 'Russia' hardly even existed in Europe and I mention this not to say Russia is some complete nonentity, but to point out to you that the long tradition of Polish democracy, love for libery and civil rights as well as Solidarity are a bunch of relics that we'll always cling to. So, please, spare yourselves lectures on democracy. Maybe, try and solve your Chechen conflict first, no? "
Again leave this snobery. Majority of Polish were slaves whose lives were wholy in the hands of their landlords.
"And last but not least, sadly I do not agree with Zbyszek that Russians LIBERATED Poland. I pay tribute to the avarage Russian soldier, but the so called 'Russian liberation' in the aftermath of WWII was nothing, but another bloodbath and re-occupation of Poland by Soviet politicians"
Bloodbath? Facts, please. Anyway if not Russian liberation the Polish as a nation now just wouldn't exist or would be slaves to Germans.
"when they stood on the Kremlin balcony to watch the 1st May parade - all looked like Asiatic warriors of Gengis Chan, or fat, obscene drunk and murdurous men wearing huge fur caps and thick coats, which would expose their pot bellies nicely filled with sausage and vodka ( the rest of the population were starving). "
Crap of Russophobia that doesn't deserve comments.
"( the rest of the population were starving). "
Absurd. Nobody starved after 1950th

[Edited by Dodo on 10th February 2003 at 01:13]

[Halina]

[i]Originally posted by Dodo
[Do you try me to tell that the facts I've put are not true? I repeat. Serfdom in Poland was THE MOST CRUEL in Europe including Russia. You can't disprove it.
You also can't disprove that Ukranians were impaled and and treated as cattle. So I don't care what "constitution" you had. Just don't try to pretend innocence.

I can very easily refute this pseudo-historical statement.

It is true that Polish magantes had large 'latyfundia' in Eastern Poland and thousands of peasants were cultivating the land for them. But;
1. Such a social hierarchy, with the peasant standing at the very bottom of the ladder was very typical in i.e. Britain (where thousands of Scots and Irish were used by the English landlords) as well as in France, not to mention the 'New World' with its practice of trade in slaves.

2. It is enough to compare the 18th century drawings (and such are available) of the Polish and the Russian peasant to see whose standard of living was much higher (the Russian peasant walked barefoot even on Sundays and his attire consisted of some kind of linen cloth and a fur cap, whereas the Polish one wore boots, caftan, trousers and a fancy belt). At this point I want to stress this is not a laughable matter. It is a reason to cry.

3. The Polish magnates made an elite - a small group of very rich families whose wealth and influence were greater than that of some European kings. However;

THE VAST MAJORITY of the privileged social stratum in the Polish Commonwealth were 'szlachta', impoverished gentry that at times could not even afford to hire any peasants. This gentry made the whole 10% of the Polish society - THE LARGEST PERCENTAGE of a FREE PRIVILEGED social group in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries throughout the WHOLE of Europe.
This is what Norman Davies has to say about them;

[i]

The magantes, however, were highly untypical of the nobility as a whole. By the mid-eighteen century an absolute majority of Polish nobles had become landless. They survived by renting properties, by serving the magnates, or even by working the land like peasants. Yet no amount of economic degradation could deprive them of what they prized most -their noble blood, their 'herb', or coat of arms, their legal status and their right to bequeath it to their children.
Poland's 'drobna szlachta', or 'petty nobility' was absolutely inimitable. In some provinces, such as Mazovia, they made up a quarter of the population(..).
The most prominent feature of 'szlachta' was the trmendous contrast between their economic stratification and their legal, cultural and political solidarity. Unlike their counterparts elswhere in Europe, they admitted no native titles. There were no Polish barons, marquises, or counts. The most they would do was to confirm the personal titles which some of their number had gained in Lithuania before the Union of 1569 or which, like the Lubomirskis, had been granted by pope, or emperor'
(Quoted from N.Davies' 'Europe',Oxford UP, 1996 p. 585)

The conclusion is simple, Dodo. The vast majority of Polish gentry were NOT slave traders. The Polish 'szlachta' had their tradition of FREEDOM and SOLIDARITY - something altogether enigmatic to the majority of Russians of that time. I will say even more - this tradition has survived to this very day and will continue to exist. Paradoxically, the Polish love of LIBERUM VETO, which suited Catherine so much, has turned against Russia like a boomerang. 1989 was a trace of this Polish tradition. I don't want to worry you, but Polish stubborness in this matter will keep on puzzling Russia whenever she feels like entering Europe via Poland again.

Finally, yes, Ukrainians were also peasants working on the 'latyfundia' but those vast lands belonged not just to POLISH magnates, but also to Ukrainian ones. It is enough to mention Ostrogski, or Wisniowiecki. This social inter-dependence was NOT exclusive for the Commonwealth. It was indeed very typical in Western Europe.
Russia, however, surpassed us all in the percentage of people subjected to slavery and in the continuity of this social subjugation. While the rest of Europe, Poland included, finally got rid of serfdom, Russia still happily continued this state of affairs, with Tzar Nicholas being the LAST tyrant of Europe.
Maybe that is why you had such bloody and pathetic revolution ?

Please, spare youreslf those arguments about how Polish lords 'sucked the blood' out of poor Ukrainian peasants. This rings a bell; the same kind of propaganda was used by Soviets TO POISON THE RELATIONS BETWEEN US POLES AND UKRAINIANS.

Of course, Ukrainian peasants were used by Polish AND UKRAINIAN magnates, but so were Polish and Belorussian peasants and the Lithuanian ones as well.

[Dodo]

Originally posted by Halina

I can very easily refute this pseudo-historical statement.

It is true that Polish magantes had large 'latyfundia' in Eastern Poland and thousands of peasants were cultivating the land for them. But;
"1. Such a social hierarchy, with the peasant standing at the very bottom of the ladder was very typical in i.e. Britain (where thousands of Scots and Irish were used by the English landlords) as well as in France, not to mention the 'New World' with its practice of trade in slaves."
Wrong. In no European country of that time including Russia there existed the serfdom of the Polish type. In Poland the peasant had no right to leave his lord. Plus the lords had so called "right of sword". So they can kill their peasant freely without any restriction. In Russia a lord didn't have the right to kill their peasants even in the blossom of servdom. In Russia serfdom was settled a century later than in Poland. So for example in the beginnign of XVII century a Russian peasant had the right to leave his lord while a Polish peasant didn't have this right. In no Western country landlords had the right to sell and buy (let alone to kill)their peasants . So again don't tell me your fairtales about "civilized and democratic" Poland.



"2. It is enough to compare the 18th century drawings (and such are available) of the Polish and the Russian peasant to see whose standard of living was much higher (the Russian peasant walked barefoot even on Sundays and his attire consisted of some kind of linen cloth and a fur cap, whereas the Polish one wore boots, caftan, trousers and a fancy belt). At this point I want to stress this is not a laughable matter. It is a reason to cry."
Much higher? Do you have any exact statistic? Any way it has nothing to do with civil rights and could result from the difference of the earth fertility.
Barefoot Russian peasants? are you crazy? In Russia where winters were even more severe than now? What a lunacy in your head?
"Finally, yes, Ukrainians were also peasants working on the 'latyfundia' but those vast lands belonged not just to POLISH magnates, but also to Ukrainian ones. It is enough to mention Ostrogski, or Wisniowiecki. This social inter-dependence was NOT exclusive for the Commonwealth. It was indeed very typical in Western Europe."
Yes to the Ukranians that betrayed their own people and exploited them with the same cruely as the Polish. Many of them was forced to betray their Orthodox faith too.

"Russia, however, surpassed us all in the percentage of people subjected to slavery and in the continuity of this social subjugation. While the rest of Europe, Poland included, finally got rid of serfdom, Russia still happily continued this state of affairs, with Tzar Nicholas being the LAST tyrant of Europe."
Tzar Nikolay lived in Russia where the serfdom was abolished 50 year before.

"Please, spare youreslf those arguments about how Polish lords 'sucked the blood' out of poor Ukrainian peasants. "
They did suck Ukranian blood admit you it or not.
"This rings a bell; the same kind of propaganda was used by Soviets TO POISON THE RELATIONS BETWEEN US POLES AND UKRAINIANS."
Absurd. According to polls 60% of the Polish has the hostile feelign against Ukranians. The Russians are guilty... eh?

"Of course, Ukrainian peasants were used by Polish AND UKRAINIAN magnates, but so were Polish and Belorussian peasants and the Lithuanian ones as well. "
Anyway the Polish are not innocent. So don't try to pretend it. It doesn't work.

[Edited by Dodo on 10th February 2003 at 01:34]