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Ukraine and Poland - a common future ?

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 6th February 2003, 16:56
Ulysses Ulysses is offline
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Post Russo-centric views

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Originally posted by mishaaverko
Ulysses

You disingenuously distort by comparing America, Canada and Australia to Russia and Ukraine.

Russia and Ukraine were united as one from the ninth to mid 13th centuries, when no differences existed between the peoples inhabiting the land of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.

In the same manner, the people of people of Meso-America were one people when no differences existed between the peoples inhabiting Mexico, El Salvador and Guatemala...but...we live in the present, and Mexico has no claim to Central America
Quote:
As for your crude comeback to NATO's aggression against Yugoslavia, Chechnya is a part of Russia, while Yugoslavia has never been a part of NATO. Like the Russians in Chechnya, the Serbs were justly fighting against Al Qaeda funded terrorism that later bit America in the butt.
The point of my previous post was to draw attention to the falacious reasoning that was used in the previous. That's all. It was not meant as a slander against the Russian people...read the disclaimer on the top...Instead of looking at the world through a Russo-centric point of view, tell me something...Did the Serbs not violate a UN approved No-fly zone HUNDREDS of times? Did the Serbs not fire upon UN troops? Did Serbs not ethnically cleanse certain enclaves? Did they not overrun Srebrenica and massacre civilians? What about the mass graves found? I bet you won't answer these questions and dismiss them as outright lies.

The NATO not coordinate the operation with the UN. One memory I have of the war was a segment of Russian news translated to English. The station was controlled by the Russian government so the film was pure propaganda at it's best. The narrator was claiming the NATO airstrikes were the CAUSE of the refuge exodus. If you wish to read about why the Yugoslavia was bombed look at this timeline on a Dutch site:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/tcc/balkan/un_chron.html

You want to talk about Chechnia, okay let's talk about Chechnia. Ivan the Terrible married a Cherkess princess, Maria Temrukovna, in 1561 to provide a basis for peaceful incorporation of the North Caucasus into Russia. However, the expected peaceful incorporation did not materialize. A few unsuccessful attempts to penetrate the North Caucasus were made by Boris Godunov (1606), after which attempts at conquest were abandoned and for a century no further move was made by Russia in that region.

In the eighteenth century, Peter I undertook a campaign to annex the whole of the Caucasus, but was forced to withdraw after suffering a serious defeat at the hands of the Mountaineers and the Azeris in 1772. Russian expansion in the Caucasus was renewed under Catherine II; her commander-in-chief, Suvorov, directed this new campaign, which provoked the first organized resistance of North Caucasians operating mainly from Chechnia and Daghestan. In 1785, Mansur Ushurma, a Chechen from Aldy, assumed the title of imam of all the Caucasian Mountaineers, a move which effectively united all the tribes of the North Caucasus: the Chechens, the Ingush, the Daghestanis, the Ossetians, the Cherkess and the Kabardians. For a time, Catherine considered the idea of ending the war against the Mountaineers by concluding a treaty of independence and friendship with them, but the intervention of Turkey on their side put an end to this plan.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 6th February 2003, 19:34
makcum makcum is offline
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..Look at chechenia they have fougth in 300 years now they deserve self rule just as Ukrain or Poland..but theres no oil so Usa dont give a damn

What are you talking about, its all about oil. USA supports Chechen independence since it is Russias say in the Caucasus region. Without Chechnya, Russia would lose all influence in the Caucasus oil field and Central Asia.

to choose betwen Poland and Russia? is it hard to choose betwen an imperialistic bakdrawing so called federation or Poland whos joining the EU...To compare Ukrains history during Poland-Lithuania 1300-1795 or Russia 1795-1991 when was there most devestation? who built tjernobyl? Who killed opposition? Who let culture be Ukrain culture? the answer is easy...During the polish times it wasnt perfect but it was by far greater than under Siberian Workcamps or going to Russian imperialistic wars..Russia used the Cossacks the Tatars the Ukrains and the Poles too..

Really, can you stop flaming your incorrect dates. During these time periods parts of Ukraine were autonomies. Poland was no different then Russia, just a different time period. Lithuania was good times for Ukrainians, rather Poland forced serfdom on the Ukrainian peasants.

and after Ukrain would join Poland in union

Ukraine will never join Poland, a union would only happen for the betterment of the Slavic race. You are no different then the Russians, if not worse. You have the same mind set, Ukraine joining YOU in a union so you may have political power.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 6th February 2003, 19:35
Zbyszek Zbyszek is offline
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-Jarema-

At this moment I can see a newest member -Jarema-
(in the right upper part of the board summary window)
Is he the same person as Jarema who started this subject?
Jarema, please show your self! We would be pleased with your presence.
Half-prawda, We are off topic at the moment. Look at the thread title! Prawda, say something sensible and practical at last.
Greetings -Jarema-.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 6th February 2003, 19:44
Zbyszek Zbyszek is offline
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Poland is not going to dominate Ukraine

Hi Makcum,
I see Half-Prawda makes you angry but people of Poland do not have any union in mind actually. We just would like to live in peace alongside. We do not want to make another iron curtain between our countries.
Young people of both countries should be free to travel and know each other better.
Makcum, I would kindly ask you for reducing the size of your lower picture because half of it is grass only.

Makcum, you simplify as well because the lords in Ukraine were:
1. Polish (Zamoyski, Koniecpolski, Ossoliski etc)
2. Ruthenian (e.g. Ostrogski, Zbaraski, Wishnewietski etc.)
3. Lithuanian (Sapieha, Pac etc.)

Ruska shlyakhta had the same rights as polska szlachta.

They mostly spoke Polish but they were often patriots of their true motherland.

THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RUSSIAN AND POLISH DOMINANCE WAS THAT POLONIZATION WAS NOT FORCED IN THE XVIITH AND THE XVIIITH CENTURY (neither in Lithuania nor in Ukraine).
Rzeczpospolita collapsed because magnantes had too much power. That's true. However that disease was born in LITHUANIA! I can give you convincing proof if you like.

I know that it is frustrating and hard to accept for Ukrainians but the democratic principles of Reczpospolita were just attractive for the Ruthenian nobles. They were one of the main reasons for their natural Polonization. Note that even in Pereyaslav, Khmyelnitski demanded the same liberties for Rusyn shlyakhta as they had in Rzeczpospolita. In vain! That could not pass in a state where samodzherzhavye was a major principle.

On the other hand I realize that XIXth century was a time of rapid nationalism growth in Europe. National feelings swept over Europe causing a lot revolts and unrest.

There was no distinct border between Lithuanian and Polish time because both countries formed one state named RZECZPOSPOLITA.


A few minutes later: I copied lower part of the main board window:
There are currently 3 member(s) and 54 guest(s) on the boards.
Are gym class students reading our rants at history lesson? Hello unknowns!

[Edited by Zbyszek on 7th February 2003 at 00:23]
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 6th February 2003, 23:28
mishaaverko mishaaverko is offline
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mishaaverko
Zbyszek:

There was no Ukraine from the ninth to mid 13th century and "Russia" as a name identifies more with "Kievan Rus" than does "Ukraine." Moreover, the Uniate denomination and west Ukrainian dialect weren't in existence at the time. Polish imperialism created that.

There's no denying that the Riurik line of monarchs moved the capital from Kiev to Muscovy, with the Romanovs succeeding them as the de facto leaders of Russia.

You can believe what you want to about the Trident, but there's no legitimate denying that the Trident initially stood for the unity of the land making up Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.

What's meant by so called "Russian aggression?"

From the mid 15 hundreds to mid 16 hundreds, Poland started a centuries conflict by occupying Russia.

In 1812, up to 50,000 Poles joined Napoleon in his aggression againsat Russia.

In 1919, Poland took advantage of the Russian Cicil War by invading it.

In 1934, Poland signs a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany.

In 1938, Poland joins Nazi Geremany and Hungary in the dismemberment of Russian and Soviet friendly Czecho-Slovakia.

Presently, Polish bashing in Russia is a greater reality than Russia bashing in Poland.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 6th February 2003, 23:41
mishaaverko mishaaverko is offline
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Ulysses

There were no such no fly zones for Serbs to violate.

When it came to violating cease-fires and safe haven zones, the Bos. Muslims specialized in that as has been authoratatively documented by Sir Michael Rose, Lord David Owen, David Hackworth and others. For that matter, the KLA violated an OSCE brokered cease-fire in 1998.

The mass exodus of Albanians came after NATO bombs dropped. Since NATO's forced entry into Kosovo, 150,000 non-Albanians have been ethnically cleansed, while unindicted (by the NATO kangaroo court) KLA goons Hasom Thaci and Agim Ceku roam wild.

As for Srebrenica, another unindicted (by the NATO kangaroo court) goon by the name of Nasir Oric (a human skull collector) led a Bos. Muslim force into that town and proceeded to kill between 1,700-3,500 Serb civilians. This happened BEFORE the more discussed (by anti-Serb propagandists like Roy Gutman and Christiane Amanpour) incident involving Dutch peacekeepers of which not all is factually known. Namely, how many were killed, what was their status (civilan or combatant) and how were they killed?

In the prior decade Chechnya had two chances at self governance. Those attempts failed thanks to Chechen terrorism. The Russocentric lands of Crimea, eastern Ukraine, northern Kazakstan (south Siberia) and trans-Dniester have greater rights to indpendence thasn Chechnya, which includes Cossack territory that the Communists had brutally usurped.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 7th February 2003, 09:04
Batukhan Batukhan is offline
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mishaaverko
[B]Zbyszek:

>>>>There was no Ukraine from the ninth to mid 13th century and "Russia" as a name identifies more with "Kievan Rus" than does "Ukraine." Moreover, the Uniate denomination and west Ukrainian dialect weren't in existence at the time. Polish imperialism created that.<<<<

Here we go again,what you know about Poland from 9 to 13 centuary ,seams like not much .



.>>>From the mid 15 hundreds to mid 16 hundreds, Poland started a centuries conflict by occupying Russia.<<<<<

Be specific how long ? 100 ,200 years ,what I know maybe 25 years at best

>>>>In 1812, up to 50,000 Poles joined Napoleon in his aggression againsat Russia.<<<<

Wrong ,it was close to 250 000 ,why not Napolen was Ally and your were anemy ,too bad he lost ,did not listen to Polish and Lithuanian generals ,they knew how to fight Russia .Shorty was arogant ,so he got screwed .

>>>In 1919, Poland took advantage of the Russian Cicil War by invading it.<<<<

You mean getting read of Russians from own land is consider invading .Kind of new theory ,ingteresting .

>>>>In 1934, Poland signs a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany.<<<<

What will you do. start war with Hitler on your own.Nobady alse were interested only Pilsudzki was interested to go after after Hitler asss in 34 but Frnace ,England and SU were not even thinking about it.Also at that time STalin provided Hitler Germany to use own land for military exercise and weapens testing and so on ,you should know that.Poland just sighn a non aggression pac,thats so what they did and is that a crime or what that aim against SU ,hitler was allready courting Stalin .

>>>In 1938, Poland joins Nazi Geremany and Hungary in the dismemberment of Russian and Soviet friendly Czecho-Slovakia.>>>>>

Bull****t ,just read more about it and find what was the real scoope ,read at least one British book for change if you do not trust any other ,Brits are objective if comes to Eeast Europe .

>>>Presently, Polish bashing in Russia is a greater reality than Russia bashing in Poland.>>>>

Do not get it ,try to be more clear or specific.
Batu
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