Ukraine and Poland - a common future ?

[mishaaverko]

Poland's history in Ukraine is imperial, whereas Russia and Ukraine share a common culture and history whether anti-Russian propagandists want to admit it or not.

Petlura was Pilsudski's puppet and shame on York College Ukrainian historian Orest Subtelny for promoting an anti-Russian Polish-Ukrainian alliance (I saw his rants on the matter a few years ago on KONTAKT).

[Ulysses]

You are justifying the subjugation of the Ukrainians by the(Soviets) Russians because both the countries are populated by Slavs? Using that logic, it would be okay for the United States to annex Canada and Australia, or for Mexico to annex the small Central American countries.

Originally posted by mishaaverko
Poland's history in Ukraine is imperial, whereas Russia and Ukraine share a common culture and history whether anti-Russian propagandists want to admit it or not.

Petlura was Pilsudski's puppet and shame on York College Ukrainian historian Orest Subtelny for promoting an anti-Russian Polish-Ukrainian alliance (I saw his rants on the matter a few years ago on KONTAKT).

[Ulysses]

Let use your logic shall we:

Russia bombs Chechnia, not as easty to bomb USA, fukin coward Russians, they have no nobleness only greed...

Originally posted by Prawda
Usa bombs serbia but not as easy to bomb russia, fukin coward americans, they have no nobleness only greed..

[mishaaverko]

Ulysses

You disingenuously distort by comparing America, Canada and Australia to Russia and Ukraine.

Russia and Ukraine were united as one from the ninth to mid 13th centuries, when no differences existed between the peoples inhabiting the land of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.

For much of recent history, Russia and much of Ukraine has been united as one.

The Trident, Ukraine's readopted coat of arms symbolizes the Russian-Ukrainian relationship. This ancient coat of arms was the emblem of the Riurik line of monarchs, who ruled Russia up thru the reign of Ivan the Terible. This dynastic line of monarchs moved the capital from Kiev to Muscovy.

As for your crude comeback to NATO's aggression against Yugoslavia, Chechnya is a part of Russia, while Yugoslavia has never been a part of NATO. Like the Russians in Chechnya, the Serbs were justly fighting against Al Qaeda funded terrorism that later bit America in the butt.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by mishaaverko
...
Russia and Ukraine were united as one from the ninth to mid 13th centuries, when no differences existed between the peoples inhabiting the land of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.

For much of recent history, Russia and much of Ukraine has been united as one.

The Trident, Ukraine's readopted coat of arms symbolizes the Russian-Ukrainian relationship...

Hi Misha,
I can say like Telwan who once described StasUA:
You are as lost as a chicken on the road.
(Telwan is a Russian nationalist but I respect his knowledge while you confuse everything here and generate a "white noise" in readers' minds):

1. There was NO Russia in the IXth century. There was Kievan Rus which was a respectable state without any visible aggressive imperial ambitions.
2. There was no Ukraine in the IXth century. However, Kievan Rus heritage should be attributed to Ukraine in the first place. I do not deny Russia can refer to it as well but the aggressive past of Russia makes it less credible.
3. Even in the XVIth century the Ivan the Terrible's state was recognized in the world as MUSCOVY and not Russia. The most of historians say: Muscovy+Ukraine=Russia. Consequently, Peter the Great (beg. of the XVIIIth cent.) can be regarded as a first RUSSIAN ruler.
4. Unfortunately, Russia did not borrow much politically from the noble principles of Kievan Rus state which was in many ways similar to the medieval Kingdom of Poland. The imperial ambitions of Tsars, merged with the brutal "samodzherzhaviye" (self-governing) policy kept Muscovy afar from the cultural and civilization progress of West European states, Rzeczpospolita and Kingdom of Hungary. Tzar was like God there.
5. It is true that Ukrainians and Russians are ethnically very close. It does not mean that Ukrainians should be deprived of their right to be ABSOLUTELY independent. If Russia truly admits its heritage of Kievan Rus, it must recognize the federal concept of this noble state. Otherwise the world will say that Russia stole the good past of Kievan Rus to justify Ukraine's incorporation.
6. I have serious doubts about your interpretation of Tryzub but let us see what Ukrainians have to say about it. I regard this symbol as a sign of Ukrainian independence and not Russian-Ukrainian relationship.

[zhuk]

Ukraine was incorporated into RP since early 14th cent up to late 17th cent.
Russia incorporated ukraine from late 17th cent up till now.
Both cultures contributed great deal, although the diferences in political systems.
But cultural effect of literacy, science, education, production - no one could decide, who contibuted more to Ukraine.
We should be greatfull for both countries, Poland and Russia for their contribution to Ukraine.
In spite of the periods of evil deed from both sides.
We ukrainians ourselves had caused a lot of problems to other nations (for example jews or polacks) to blame other nation in the same crimes.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by mishaaverko
Poland's history in Ukraine is imperial, whereas Russia and Ukraine share a common culture and history whether anti-Russian propagandists want to admit it or not.

Petlura was Pilsudski's puppet and shame on York College Ukrainian historian Orest Subtelny for promoting an anti-Russian Polish-Ukrainian alliance (I saw his rants on the matter a few years ago on KONTAKT).

I have not heard about prof. Subtelny's statement but I can't believe his talk was anti-Russian. Maybe it was just anti-imperialist. Misha, you get the difference I hope. Actual policy of Poland's Republic is not anti-Russian. We Poles generally like common Russian people, we only do not like when they show imperial ambitions never mind Soviet or Tsarist like.
BTW, it is funny but subtelny means: nice, subtle in Polish so some credit goes to prof. Subtelny right on the start ...lol.
And my last remark... we'd better talk about Pushkin (not the one who, as a representative of the Tsar, negotiated with Rzeczpospolita and made so much fuss because of the "scandalous" censorship lack in XVIIth cent. Gdansk, Poland. Muscovy started 1654 war with this excuse and burned Vilnius!), Shewchenko and Mickiewicz
than Ivan the Terrible, Khmyelnitski and Sigismund the Third - all three "gentlemen" hardly represented our nations.
I realize it is more difficult though.





[Edited by Zbyszek on 6th February 2003 at 15:49]