Stalin, Hitler, Lenin and so on.

[zhuk]

Passionate patriots of Ukraine, Russia, USA and many others countries often consider Stalin, Hitler or Lenin their main problem.
About Stalin in Ukraine in 1930-1933. He is main criminal guilty in horrors of Hunger in Ukraine.
BUT: why the only one man is guilty. Were not thousands and hundreds of local ukrainian, jews and russian comissars and communist activists who personally killed people.
It is so easy to attribute all the evil to one person and TOO hard to admit that your own grandpa could be the same blinded by ideology criminal.
Russian are often accused in the Hunger of 1930-1933. Is that right, or ukrainian officials were also guilty.
Could anybody answer?

[CameoJoe]

You are correct about the contributions of citizens in these countries in regards to murder and association with these extreme leaders.
I suppose the populace had options to overthrow these leaders but were never able to for one reason or the other. It should be remembered that these peoples do not advocate such actions today and would not condone them.
Leaders in these type regimes do carry the weapons and power and there actions are carried out by the representitive of the populace etc...
In concentration camps during WW2 you had the jewish prisinors working with the camp powerful in hopes for food or there actual existence itself. I find it hard to condemn a jewish prisinor of his hopes for survival then as I hold the populace of good heart in the respective countries you listed.

[Bartosz]

Originally posted by zhuk
Passionate patriots of Ukraine, Russia, USA and many others countries often consider Stalin, Hitler or Lenin their main problem.
About Stalin in Ukraine in 1930-1933. He is main criminal guilty in horrors of Hunger in Ukraine.
BUT: why the only one man is guilty. Were not thousands and hundreds of local ukrainian, jews and russian comissars and communist activists who personally killed people.
It is so easy to attribute all the evil to one person and TOO hard to admit that your own grandpa could be the same blinded by ideology criminal.
Russian are often accused in the Hunger of 1930-1933. Is that right, or ukrainian officials were also guilty.
Could anybody answer?

It▓s a very difficult subject I admit. But before I throw the stone, let me only say that looses ONLY Russian society in the years 1918-1952 were estimated on 40-70 millions.

I think that the myrmidons of the given nationality had their share proportionally to the share of the given nation in the society.

And, btw, certain DzierzyЯski was, guess, what nationality?

[johncullen]

i can say to you that yusef dhugashvili alias stalin got his hands on the LEVERS of total power in USSR, because of Central Planning, and had all his croonies lower down in the pyramid in place to do his bidding. His minnions then in the NKVD proceeded to do his bidding of murder and pillage, some 60 millions lost the lives across USSR from the time he took power under 1953 when he died. His compatriots were even afraid to touch his body when he was dead.
by the way Mikhail Gorbachev is coming to my town soon to be given the freedom of the city. Does he deserve this honour or should it go instead or also to yeltzin ?

[johncullen]

Now gentlemen if you are going to debate this question
keep your blood cool and your heads clear, and listen to what the other guy has to say

[zhuk]

Gentlemen, I would like to give the second breath to our discussion.
Please, look at the following.
Although Stalin or Lenin, or Hitler ar others were on the top of the pyramid quite with hands over the levers of totalitarian states. But how did they came to power.
Almost any of them was put on the highest post of the governement by a kind of elections although by a ceased or limited number of supporters.
Then the rules edited by the dictator reaches any province or state organization they are either supported or neglected.
So we should admit that cruel rules or laws, established by communists in 1918 or fascists in 1933. These rules were considered VERY POPULAR by most of the population.
As well as terror which followed.
The guestion is still unsettled for me is:
whether the simple soldiers of Red Army or German Nazi who have to shoot jews in hudreds are guilty or not?
In my opinion, they are. Although for me it is very easy to blame them at a distance of some 50 years and sitting in a comfortable chair of my office.
But it seems me that to blame only generals or members of governement, who issued the criminal laws and orders is much moreunreasonable than above mentioned.
So the whole thousands of people should be blamed and found guilty rather than several men of high power state governement.

[Bartosz]

Originally posted by johncullen
i can say to you that yusef dhugashvili alias stalin got his hands on the LEVERS of total power in USSR, because of Central Planning, and had all his croonies lower down in the pyramid in place to do his bidding. His minnions then in the NKVD proceeded to do his bidding of murder and pillage, some 60 millions lost the lives across USSR from the time he took power under 1953 when he died. His compatriots were even afraid to touch his body when he was dead.
by the way Mikhail Gorbachev is coming to my town soon to be given the freedom of the city. Does he deserve this honour or should it go instead or also to yeltzin ?

Gorbatchev definitely deserves this honor. He created the most essential fundament of the democracy: public opinion. Just this public opinion let evolve Russian democracy. And Russian democracy, however painfully was conceived, let all countries in the region regain their self-determination.