Polish city Lwow

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

...Vasyl, since you put the picture of UPA soldiers to your signature it will be interesting for you to read about Polish repressions against OUN and about details of first Stephan Bandera arrest. It will open your eyes wider then any kind of coffee.

As far as I know, Vasyl included Ukrainian GALICIA ARMY soldiers 1918- 1920 and not UPA and it makes a huuuuuuuuuge difference.
Bandera was a terrorist who participated in the assasination of a Polish deputy minister Pieracki in the thirties. He was finally released form the Polish prison and it turned out to be an expensive mistake. Bandera was an ardent believer in the Dontsov terrorist philosophy. He believed terrorism was efficient when trying to fight for independence. I do not agree, even if a Russian Tsar himself would be a possible victim. Ironically, Pieracki maintained a soft line against Ukrainians. Bandera was consciously, methodically cruel. For him, Pieracki was a symbol of governmental Polish oppresion so he had no scruple when killing him.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Obviously our countries has own treatments of miserable common histrory and I prefer ours as more objective one...

The BIG question is why Poles punished peaceful innocent peasants and civilians and performed first so called "pacification" on Halych in 1930. Pacifications now are reffered as Nazi practice. But Poles were first ones who implemented it, who hit and robbered civilians massively and btw article states many Ukrainian leftists labeled Polish occupational regime as "Polish fascism".

Completely correct.

And pacification happened EARLIER then any murders, it was reaction only on OUN "sabotage" of 1930.

Vasyl, both kinds of Ukrainian militaries are OK here. I think you need to put there the UPA sodiers too.

[bm-21Lemko]

actually its a ukrainian legion in lviv heading for the eastern front. My great grandfather fought in the great war. He learned german and polish while in the army because not all the army manuals were in Ukrainian. He fought in Poland and much of Ukraine. He said many of the generals thought they would desert and join the enemy including polish legions. Since trench warfare was less common on the eastern front they mostly fought on the vast countryside of eastern europe as well as a fortress like this one. It was ironic because Ukrainians in the Austro-hungarian empire fought other Ukrainians in the Russian empire.



He had been to lviv as well, really he marched through it. Zybszek, I know you like lwow, was any of your family in the austro-hungarian army?

Even after 1918 when the empire was in pieces the army was not and poles still fought poles and Ukrainians still fought Ukrainians and they both fought Russians.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Vasyl, it’s very nice picture and very dramatic story. I actually though these ones are the UPA soldiers but Ukrainian soldiers moving on Eastern front also are very suitable personages here.

Just give me to explain why I changed the theme to later times. Mostly because I want to see the whole thing as it is.

You are guy with good soul so I think Zbyszek just moved you to wrong direction on Ukraine-language discussion. He is experienced in such deceptive rhetoric, from his very first day he talks about his friendship to Ukraine and at the same time he blames all Ukrainian national heroes as Chemelnitsky, Bandera without mercy.

That’s why I really doubt his friendship is really so deep if he hits our holy ones. Ones who dared to keep the sword in a hand.

In Ukraine-language discussion he played an unfair trick, I noticed it but since everyone of us wished to stop this idle talks about Lviv belonging I didn’t disclosed it. But I see the Zbyszek looks for continuation so I will break everything point by point.

He stated something like “20th century brought the cranky nationalism” and before there was “golden age” where people loved and respected one each other meeting the foreigner was “rare experience” etc.

The hidden sense is Ukrainians and Poles were friends inside the Austrian Empire and one day Ukrainians suddenly became the bad nationalist and began to hate Poles. Really, the version for kinder garden!

20th century brought the Western Ukrainians first of all the end of Austrian Empire, the national Ukrainian state and Polish occupation which was connected with political repressions, murders, robbery of lands, pacifications and merciless destroying of Ukrainian ethnic identity.

“Nationalism” appeared only as defensive reaction of Ukrainians on Polish humiliation, this is the only reason of every nationalism in Halych. Exactly the Polish occupation and repression created the entire Halych nationalism with Dontsov, Bandera and many other ideologists and soldiers.

Reading the second part of article “Ukrainian Lands Under Polish Occupation” everyone sees Poles implemented the Nazy methods as “pacifications” yet in 1930. Mentioned murders of Polish governmental occupants were only the logical response to pacifications with their brutal violence and robbery.

So the chain of subsequences is very clear and obvious.

Moreover, the core myth about lovely friendship between Ukrainians and Poles in Austrian Empire is fake. Yes, the pictures of coffee houses on one street are eloquent. But this does not benefit Poles anyway. This means Austrian tied both and put the peace violently. Just when the ties of the Empire broke, the battle has been begun.

For example, Austrian Empire yet existed when Poles already prepared the occupation of Halych. Moreover, they even created special bodies as Liquidation Commission with aim to reform all the Halych institutions under Polish interests. This fact is well known and it accelerated the creation of Western-Ukrainian People’s Republic. The further events are known.

So as usually we got another portion of mythological hoopla where the historic truth is artistically distorted and mixed with obvious lie.

However my complete distrust to Poles opens my eyes much better then any kind of coffee and allows seeing the truth beyond the lie.

[Zbyszek]

Yes Vasyl, situation became extremely complicated at the time of Bolshevik revolution. Atamam Petliura fought along Pilsudski but when they arived in Kyiv together, they met no desire to fight - absolute apathy of Ukrainian population reigned there and it was so much different then in western Ukraine. They had to stop. Bolsheviks advanced then and they quickly approached Warsaw where they were impressively conquered.
My uncle fought in the legions formed under Pilsudski's command at a time when they became disobiedient to an Austro-Hungarian Empire (1917). Then, he fought in the Polish-Soviet War 1920 and he was severely cut in the head by a Cossack with a sabre - he said he had lost a cap full of blood but he miraculously lived out.
Yes, it is difficult to explain the situation of 1918 even now and explanation of your ancestors sounds right. I think Ukrainian nation lost in 1918 as a whole because of the same reasons which are its weakness even now - a painful split between the east and the west.
And I do think Lwow prospered through centuries, luckily (or better said wisely) avoiding direct engagement in the risky undertakings (like Khmyelnitsky's rule) and it brought blessed result of prosperity continuation and gradual, slow replacement of generations aware of their past. When we study a sad fate of many once prosperous towns of XVIIth century Ukraine (depicted in detail by a genius French engineer Wilhelm le Vasser de Beauplan), burned to the ground and forsaken, we only can appreciate the wisdom of Lwow's townsmen.
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[bm-21Lemko]

Pilsudski's command hmm... you have to understand my distaste for this man as he is the one who brought down the Ukrainian galician republic under Yevhen Petrushevych. It seems not all parts of the army joined with one another, i guarentee you my great grandfather may have been pro-ukrainian but looked upon other Austro-hungarian soldiers as brothers as long as they continued to fight for the central powers.

Yes i agree with you that Ukraine even today is not united, there are what i like to call pro-russian and pro-west. It even seems pro-west is divided as well.

National identity for a pursued homeland was always in the background of everyones mind for the subjects of the Austro-hungarian empire but it really did not occur until 1917.

Now as we all know Ukrainian were persecuted under the Austro-hungarian empire by Poles which layed roots to other foundations of nationalism and hate.
(Ukrainians hung for accusations of being russian spys, Galicia administration)


But they came together under one flag, not for independence, but to protect their homes. no one seems to remember that.

[bm-21Lemko]

This is the Ukraine I want to live under.