Polish city Lwow

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

And why not 700 000?
Why not 7 000 000?

This is question to Taras Hunchack, work "Ukrainian lands under Polish occupation". I gave the photo print right on the board. Please go and read first paragraphs. I even put the arrows in places with facts mentioned.

I hope all Ukrainians present agree the number of repressed ones in article is exactly 70 000.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

This is question to Taras Hunchack, work "Ukrainian lands under Polish occupation". I gave the photo print right on the board. Please go and read first paragraphs. I even put the arrows in places with facts mentioned.

I hope all Ukrainians present agree the number of repressed ones in article is exactly 70 000.

No Max, you had not said "repressed", you'd said "put into prisons AND murdered. DO you know what AND is? You just accused Polish people of murdering 70 000 Ukrainians. That is new research. Scientific sensation!

[Max_the_Highlander]

Yes, article says they were thrown into prison and of course part of them got death sentences. I state 70 000 were imprisoned, of course.

[bm-21Lemko]

I know my history well. Now let me give you a simplified version our history of Ukrainian crimes. From 1860 poles ruled in galicia administrively.

1. They harassed the Ukrainian population
2. Accused them of being sympathizers to the enemy so they could be hung

Then comes the breakup, Galicia lands dominated by ukrainians want independence. The Poles come marching down with their armies and a war ensues.

1. Poland denies independence of ukrainian lands
2. Western Nations turn their backs on the Ukrainians.

After the war, soldiers and civilians are imprisoned in internment camps previously used by the former empires. (Dąbie, Łańcut, Pikulice, Strzałków, and Wadowice.) - camps

"Poland "taking into consideration that Poland has recognized that in regard to the eastern part of Galicia ethnographic conditions fully deserve its autonomous status"

1. Never happened
2. In school ukrainian children were taught to hate ukrainians and praise poland

"Teaches our children
To praise Poland
And hate Rus'."

Then Poland continued to harass ukrainians with imprisonment including the Ukrainian nationalists(oun) and just regular civilians Many of those top leaders were in this camp for almost ten years. Poland treated Ukrainians as second class citizens.

OUN members who were incarcerated at Bereza Kartuska have testified to the use there of torture. There were frequent beatings (with boards being placed against inmates' backs and struck with hammers), forced labor, constant harassment, the use of solitary confinement without provocation, punishment for inmates' use of the Ukrainian language, etc

Once these members were released by the Germans, you don't think they might have had a vendetta from all those years of torture and harassment?

so once again we tried to set up an area for Ukrainians and once again fighting ensues for land again. Many people are killed on both sides.

Ukrainains kicked out of native land and the rest were put into concentration camps that were set up after WWII.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

I know my history well. Now let me give you a simplified version our history of Ukrainian crimes. From 1860 poles ruled in galicia administrively.

1. They harassed the Ukrainian population
2. Accused them of being sympathizers to the enemy so they could be hung

Then comes the breakup, Galicia lands dominated by ukrainians want independence. The Poles come marching down with their armies and a war ensues.

1. Poland denies independence of ukrainian lands
2. Western Nations turn their backs on the Ukrainians.

After the war, soldiers and civilians are imprisoned in internment camps previously used by the former empires. (Dąbie, Łańcut, Pikulice, Strzałków, and Wadowice.) - camps

"Poland "taking into consideration that Poland has recognized that in regard to the eastern part of Galicia ethnographic conditions fully deserve its autonomous status"

1. Never happened
2. In school ukrainian children were taught to hate ukrainians and praise poland

"Teaches our children
To praise Poland
And hate Rus'."

Then Poland continued to harass ukrainians with imprisonment including the Ukrainian nationalists(oun) and just regular civilians Many of those top leaders were in this camp for almost ten years. Poland treated Ukrainians as second class citizens.



Once these members were released by the Germans, you don't think they might have had a vendetta from all those years of torture and harassment?

so once again we tried to set up an area for Ukrainians and once again fighting ensues for land again. Many people are killed on both sides.

Ukrainains kicked out of native land and the rest were put into concentration camps that were set up after WWII.

I am not so sure all the above has much to do with the issue of Lviv. Lemko, you are surely entitled to express your opinion of course. The conclusions are sad - Poles had nothing more important or interesting to do but to oppress Ukrainians. I do think that a bystander reading your post will be puzzled by how all those poor Ukrainian poeple could anyhow survive so much opression, torture and harrassment. Yes, you can unfold a history of your nation as an ugly beaten duckling - I know it perfectly because there are historians and politicians in Poland now painting the same sad image of Poland-Jesus dying on the cross. It is not my historic perception, though and I am warning you that it is of no good use for your land. You will not built impressive future on such foundation. No.

By the way - do not you think Poles contributed to Lwow's beauty in the short breaks between the long fits of rage against Ukrainians and that they did not do it for the exclusive Polish use but just for contemporary city inhabitants?
The most of people debating here do not take into account an old but fresh concept that all this national mixture of Lwiowians made a harmony and in spite of unavoidable conflicts, they managed to make their town a good place on earth?

[bm-21Lemko]

I am not so sure all the above has much to do with the issue of Lviv. Lemko, you are surely entitled to express your opinion of course. The conclusions are sad - Poles had nothing more important or interesting to do but to oppress Ukrainians. I do think that a bystander reading your post will be puzzled by how all those poor Ukrainian poeple could anyhow survive so much opression, torture and harrassment. Yes, you can unfold a history of your nation as an ugly beaten duckling - I know it perfectly because there are historians and politicians in Poland now painting the same sad image of Poland-Jesus dying on the cross. It is not my historic perception, though and I am warning you that it is of no good use for your land. You will not built impressive future on such foundation. No.

By the way - do not you think Poles contributed to Lwow's beauty in the short breaks between the long fits of rage against Ukrainians and that they did not do it for the exclusive Polish use but just for contemporary city inhabitants?
The most of people debating here do not take into account an old but fresh concept that all this national mixture of Lwiowians made a harmony and in spite of unavoidable conflicts, they managed to make their town a good place on earth?

I don't deny that lviv should have been divided like east berlin and west berlin, but for one group to rule the entirety of the city is just not appealing. As to what you say to poles creation of lwow, sure i don't deny it happened but it happened under a foreign ruler and with the collabaration of poles in the galician administration.

All of the above, i stated has to do everything with lviv. it has been stated that Ukrainians have committed horendous atrocities. Yes, but who started this whole internal conflict or better yet who kept fueling it. Oh the UPA and OUN are mass murders. Why dont you check your own partisan organizations that committed atrocities or government officials that created "fun" camps. If anyone suppressed or destroyed culture look at the stated events in my last post.

current (Western) Ukrainian stance toward the atrocities done by UPA, the true ideology of OUN, the role of Ukrainians in the Holocaust, the history of Lviv and a few other topics.

[Lvivske]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

The conclusions are sad - Poles had nothing more important or interesting to do but to oppress Ukrainians. I do think that a bystander reading your post will be puzzled by how all those poor Ukrainian poeple could anyhow survive so much opression, torture and harrassment. Yes, you can unfold a history of your nation as an ugly beaten duckling - I know it perfectly because there are historians and politicians in Poland now painting the same sad image of Poland-Jesus dying on the cross. It is not my historic perception, though and I am warning you that it is of no good use for your land. You will not built impressive future on such foundation. No.

If you want to argue it was done out of boredom, thats your case, but it happened as much as you want to deflect it. Sure, you would like the "historic perception" to be eliminated but so do Holocaust deniers.