Polish city Lwow

[bm-21Lemko]

Lviv is now like a man after a near-fatal disease
Lemko, Michael is right when saying that rural inhabitants were settled in Lviv after 1945 and they completely changed the cultural picture of this city. The housing level, care for the property deteriorated rapidly. I spent three nights myself in one "komunalka" (do you know this name and its connotation?). The pictures I witnessed were really typically Soviet-like; ruined floor and plumbing (brass plumbing still remembers prewar Poland!), terrible staircase, deteriorated bathroom equipment, one family in one room etc. etc. It has once been an elegant four bedroom apartment in Liszt street and now??? Drinking water is in supply for only a few hours a day. Did you know that?
Did you stay in a typical Lviv hotel?

I do not say it is a Ukrainian fault - it is just typically sad Soviet heritage.

I really don't know how this defends anything. so if the city was under a communist polish administration, the city would have not deterioted because there was a high polish population?

Mieszko controlled it for 20 years and from 980 - 1387 it was under kieven rus. then from there it was controlled by poles until 1704 and was captured by sweden and then in 1772 became part of austro-hungarian empire.

I still fail to find how ukrainians arbitrarly committed mass murder throughout all of Poland.

if we are going to play this game then all of the land in the south of poland in podkarpackie and malopolskie is ukrainian land too and has seriously deterioted since polish occupation.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

I really don't know how this defends anything. so if the city was under a communist polish administration, the city would have not deterioted because there was a high polish population?

I would risk to say - yes, Lviv would be in better shape when in Polish hands and I'm saying it by comparing to Wroclaw or Cracow. Wroclaw is an elegant city, full of young spirit and respect for the [German] past. Polish communists ruled only after 1945 and they had good prewar parents ha ha. A good city is like a good school - it badly needs tradition and continuation which was broken in the case of Lviv. Original Lviv population [Polish+Jewish+Ukrainian]would have been extremely important for continuous city development after 1945 - even with Ukrainian administration.
Yet, there are good chances for Lviv now.

[bm-21Lemko]

I would risk to say - yes, Lviv would be in better shape when in Polish hands and I'm saying it by comparing to Wroclaw or Cracow. Wroclaw is an elegant city, full of young spirit and respect for the [German] past. Polish communists ruled only after 1945 and they had good prewar parents ha ha. A good city is like a good school - it badly needs tradition and continuation which was broken in the case of Lviv. Original Lviv population [Polish+Jewish+Ukrainian]would have been extremely important for continuous city development after 1945 - even with Ukrainian administration.
Yet, there are good chances for Lviv now.

I don't know how 20 years of polish control of the city makes it so much better when the Austrian government is the one who controlled it for a 125 years under a german administration, sure there were poles under this administration of germans but they spoke german in the administration and not polish.

what about these:

I still fail to find how ukrainians arbitrarly committed mass murder throughout all of Poland.

if we are going to play this game then all of the land in the south of poland in podkarpackie and malopolskie is ukrainian land too and has seriously deterioted since polish occupation.

[Lvivske]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

if we are going to play this game then all of the land in the south of poland in podkarpackie and malopolskie is ukrainian land too and has seriously deterioted since polish occupation.

and Krakov has gone to hell since the Poles destroyed the rich Russian culture there. To hell!

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Kathy

I don't think anyone is arguing Lviv today is a Polish city. I believe the discussion is a discussion of the history from 1939 and before.

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

I really fail to believe that when you have something like this :


"I actually don't claim that Lviv does or should belong to Poland now - a city is more than a location and buildings, a city is above all the population, the life and culture created by it. Lviv was a Polish city before 1945, but then it has been effectively destroyed (in cultural, social terms) - it's population have been replaced by outsiders, now there's a Ukrainian city there, with a cultural history of 53 years."

I have no idea what you mean - I stated directly:

"Lviv was a Polish city before 1945, but then it has been effectively destroyed (in cultural, social terms) - it's population have been replaced by outsiders, now there's a Ukrainian city there"

- how is it arguing that Lviv is a Polish city now?

"the role of Ukrainians in the Holocaust"

right and we set up concentration camps too right? so, ukrainians set out across all of poland in order to kill every single pole they could find

Listen, the fact that you react in such a way shows exactly the poor level of historical awareness among Ukrainians (including Lemkos) - I think that if you would know more about these two tragic topics - the Ukrainian participation in Holocaust and the mass murders of Polish civilians by UPA, you would understand that there is little to laugh about.

since you claim that was communist action what about the communist concentration camps set up for ukrainians too. no because that was under moscow. Right?

From one side that was a communist action, done by non-indepdendent goverment directed by Moscow...but from the other, I'm sure that if we had a independent goverment, then (after the "Volhynian Massacres") some action against Ukrainians would be taken, in this shape or another.

Taking the matter of responsibility aside, I don't think that "Action Wisla" can be judged without taking in account the mutual mass murders of civilian population done by both sides, ignited by UPA - in many ways, this action (and the simultanous deportation of Polish population West), stopped the killings, I think it had a definitive positive side.

Personally, I think that the Polish parlament should only condemn and apologise for deportation of Lemkos and Bojkos - this ethnic groups had little do with UPA and have been unjustly dealt with.

well then what about
Bereza Kartuska Detention Camp that was not under a communist regime

Yes, it was not and definitively some Ukrainians were opressed (tortured) there. Still, it's important to note that Bereza Katruska was a prison for political prisoners - many Ukrainians got there for their political activities, but nobody was locked there for his ethnicity alone.

You talk down to us like its all our fault. That ukrainians nationalists have a vendetta to exterminate poles.

1. I do not recall saying that "it's your fault" or anything like that. I do however claim that many uncomfortable facts from Ukrainian history are being either denied, or ignored by Ukrainians.

2. Ukrainian nationalists (UPA) did mass murder Polish civilians, this is a historical fact, I'm really negatively surprised that after all that time, there's still noticeable lack of awareness about it on Ukrainian side.

Originally Posted by Lvivske

...and was a Galicia-Volhynia city originally, or at the very least settled by Rusyn tribes.

Correct - it was a Rusyn/Ukrainian city initially.

and can you not say the same thing for polish lwow, that its population was replaced by outsiders the first time it was annexed?

Not exactly - the population was not replaced, Lwow/Lviv received beneficial legal status know as "Magdeburg Laws" and....grew and grew, AFAIK there is no mention of expulsion of Rusyn/Ukrainian population anywhere, the growing city attracted settlers from Poland.

regardless, you're really splitting hairs here. it was a rusyn/ kievan rus city originally and is a ukrainian city today. poles don't even enter the equation as far as im concerned. it was black eye on the city's history.

And that's fine by me - I understand that Ukrainians can see the "Polish period" of Lviv's history negatively - it's subjective, I only have a problem with history falsification - for example with claiming that the period of dominance of Polish population in Lviv did't happen.

now that i think about it....whats your point in this whole mess?

My point in this matter is roughly the above + that I still don't understand why some Ukrainians are reacting in such a allergic manner to certain elements in Ukraine's history.

[Max_the_Highlander]

And that's fine by me - I understand that Ukrainians can see the "Polish period" of Lviv's history negatively - it's subjective, I only have a problem with history falsification - for example with claiming that the period of dominance of Polish population in Lviv did't happen.

It's not subjectively... After occupation of Ukrainian lands in 1918 Poles put to prisons amd murdered 70 000 of people, mostly former soldiers and political activists.

Polish officials openly stated they will eliminate "Ukrainian problem" completely during next 25 years, which means they were about the culture, political and ethnical genocide.

Till the 1932 due to land reform Poles robbered from Ukrainians 425 000 hectares.

And you have problem with numbers only because you gave us forged data. Definitely, Polish dominance in Lviv never happened because 50% - 30% = 20% (approximately).

You even can't publish here any photos for example photo document of Yury's testament. Every "IT-specialist" can turn the paper to jpg and jpg to paper. But you definitely can't.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

It's not subjectively... After occupation of Ukrainian lands in 1918 Poles put to prisons amd murdered 70 000 of people, mostly former soldiers and political activists.

...

And why not 700 000?
Why not 7 000 000?

Do not spare us Max.



Do you know a history of Polish and Ukrainian cemetary after 1918 fighting in Lviv, anyway. Do you know who desecrated the Ukrainian part and when?