Polish city Lwow

[Andrej]

Zhuk, you are sadly mistaken. When I first came here It was just my picture, if you read my posts you will also see I am not anti-Ukranian or anything of this sorts. My grandmother was Ukranian, the flag is not a show of ultra nationalism or anything of this sort. In fact I use the same emblem on both Russia.com, Turkey.com and ThePhora.com, it has nothing to do with Ukraine. My grandmother is Ukranian, I have been in Ukraine, its unjust to judge me by my signature. I don't think its too much, and I don't think theres anything wrong with it, nor was it especially enegeneered for this forum. Like I said I use it everywhere.

[The_Last_Word]

The residents of Lvov today are not the descendents of the people who lived there in 1649.

In 1920, the city almost exclusively populated by Poles and Jews was defended by the Polish army. During and after WW2 its residents were kicked out or killed and replaced by Ukrainians. I don't see a connection of historic events you mentioned to the current residents of Lvov.

BTW, are there any Poles here who would be willing to vacate Pomerania and Silesia and return to Lvov and Galicia, where they originally came from?

Originally posted by zhuk
It is agood illusrtration on the topic how soon the memory of the people fades.
These days Lwowiane do not remember how they had defended their own city against Chmelnitsky troops in 1649.
As well as they defended it in 1920 and 1939.
I am sure that in todays modern Lwow there is the street named after Chmelnitsky.
It would be considered as nightmare for any citizen of Lwow in 17th century.

[Cossack49]

I would like opinions on this subject..... My forfathers came from Ukraine to Canada to escape the opression of the Polish government... My father and mother as young children were not allowed to go to school and speak our native language. In order to be enrolled in school the Polish government required Ukrainians to "polishize" their names. If one did not comply admission to school was not permitted. Thus our Ukrainian surname was bastardized from original BEREZA to Brezowski... This only permitted my father to attend school for 4 years... What a unique way for the Poles to manipulate census counts... eg. Polish names outnumber Ukrainian names, therefore the greater population is Polish and this is now Poland.... Halychyna and Lviv have always been inhabited primarily by Ukrainians and Russification nor Polonfication did not nor will ever change the facts......

[johnstruthers]

Again, we're discussing the essential ethnicity that people identify with, the notion of pure "Ukrainians", and there ain't many. As far as "ownership" of the place, it's pretty clear that Poland "owned" the joint for a long time, and in fact "owned" it all the way down to the Black Sea at one point. The concept of a distinctly Ukrainian people is, relatively speaking, a new one: It doesn't trace back that far. Everybody who has "owned" this patch of real estate over the centuries has inflicted their languages, culture and tax collection methods on the indigenous folk, who have not stayed in one place, either. So: Moot point. Tragic, unfair, all that stuff. But the borders are pretty clearly drawn right now, making it "Ukraine" for the time being. Poles will say it was Poland a few times, and we can't deny it: They "owned" the place. Just down the road, parts "belonged" to Romania, too, keep in mind. There's still some rough language being exchanged on that point. No matter: We "own" it now. And nobody there will make you speak Polish any more.

[Zbyszek]

Hi Cossack, your voice on the PL-UA issues is surely not the first one on this forum. Please, read the old discussions because they can give you a lot of relevant knowledge. I understand that your opinion is coloured by the plight of your relatives √ as a Pole I can only say that I am very sorry. I suppose you referred to the years 1920-1939. Any honest Polish patriot can not deny that the national policies of the prewar Poland were far from perfect. However, you should keep in mind that those short nineteen years can hardly be compared to the tragedy next door, in Soviet Ukraine. Poland ressurrected in 1918 after 123 years of being divided by three hungry powers: Russia, Prussia and Austro-Hungarian empire. Poland▓s mistakes were kind of infant state errors which, you have to admit, are happening now to Ukraine, too. Ukraine has existed as an independent state (to my delight) for already more than ten years.
Thanks to Vanya and Kathy, we have a friendly discussion here and we all try to play up the positive PL-UA-RU co-existence.
One more important remark from a Pole: The territories stretching from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea were the domain not of Poland but Rzeczpospolita of Two Nations. With only a bit more luck it could be (it was in fact for a few years after the unusual union of Hadiach 1658) a Commonwealth of Three Nations. Wyhowski, a successor of Hmyelnitzki was an educated and wise Cossack but the intrigues of Muscovy thwarted his ,as well as those of Adam Kysil, unification efforts. Kysil was an RP senate member and one of the wisest, true Rusyn Orthodox statesmen.
The difference between Rzeczpopolita and Poland is similar as between Britain and England.It is so important because there was no enforced polonization at Kysil times. It was unthinkable then. Some stupid Poles forget about it as well and claim that "Poland ruled half of Europe". DO you know that XVIth cent. Rzeczpospolita(=De Republika=The Republic)had her PARLIAMENT, BUDGET and the King was ELECTED by all the nobles of the country (including Rusyn nobles as well)? Muscovy/Russia had to wait centuries for these democratic standards.
Rzeczpospolita was surely far from perfect, but its fundamental ideas of uniting instead of dividing will always be a matter of pride to me, particularly now when Poland is almost a European Union member.

[Edited by Zbyszek on 20th December 2002 at 21:39]

[Zbyszek]

Quoted by Vanya:
Again, we're discussing the essential ethnicity that people identify with, the notion of pure "Ukrainians", and there ain't many. As far as "ownership" of the place, it's pretty clear that Poland "owned" the joint for a long time, and in fact "owned" it all the way down to the Black Sea at one point. The concept of a distinctly Ukrainian people is, relatively speaking, a new one: It doesn't trace back that far. Everybody who has "owned" this patch of real estate over the centuries has inflicted their languages, culture and tax collection methods on the indigenous folk, who have not stayed in one place, either. So: Moot point. Tragic, unfair, all that stuff. But the borders are pretty clearly drawn right now, making it "Ukraine" for the time being. Poles will say it was Poland a few times, and we can't deny it: They "owned" the place. Just down the road, parts "belonged" to Romania, too, keep in mind. There's still some rough language being exchanged on that point. No matter: We "own" it now. And nobody there will make you speak Polish any more.

Vanya, your post is of special importance now, just before Christmas Holidays. Jesus was born as a Jew, but he died just as a human. All his life and death is a protest against putting the national feelings in front of all other values. Many of us are stunned at the Jerusalem crowd attitude when Pilate asked his famous question. They preferred to release Bar-Abbas instead of Jesus. Jews obviously treated Bar-Abbas as a representative of their best national interest, in spite of his terrorist methods. They were surely convinced that Jesus betrayed Jewish people.
Yes, Vanya our national ⌠ownership■ is not quite ours and your quotation marks are well justified.
The national feelings give us a lot of comfort but they are just sinful when used to display our superiority over the other nations. National feelings often promote hatred and they are a kind of the spiritual consumption while we need the other loves to invest in our good future.
One of my friends jokes: Zbyszek, if I liked to work as hard as I love to loaf, I would be a millionaire.
I would change it into: if we liked to love as hard as we love to hate, this world would be heaven.


[Edited by Zbyszek on 23rd December 2002 at 08:47]

[sum1uk]

Originally posted by Lwow_pl
Before World War 2 Lwow was a centre of Polish culture and science.

This is true, but before that it was a major city of the Ukrainians.

Originally posted by Lwow_pl
Over 50% people, who lived there were Poles. And I think, that Lwow should again belong to Poland

Why? If it was a Ukrainian city to begin with, why should it belong to Poland?