I'm learning few things

[ricardo]

Until today my knowledge of Ukranian history was very sketchy and still wonder how Ukraine got into this mess torn between (Russia, Poland, Austria) major historical powers and almost absorbed by them. You people are doing a heck of the lot by bringuing those facts where some people would strongly argue pro or against to as how truthful to the facts historical accouts are Inspite these arguments (every country has them)I enjoy these threads and I'd like to read more. Just my thoughts
Personally I don't believe we have been through a Diaspora (as many older people believe) however we came close to it but geeweez! we are a spread out bunch in fact I probably think that there are many more Ukranians than Russians or Bielorussians out there in the world at large calling themselves Russians or Poles and I want to know why?
Many when asked reply to you that "they're from Ukraine" and I ask then You mean you're not Ukranian? Are you Russian? next they may shake their heads and move onto the next topic.
On the other hand I came accross others who pretended to be more Ukranians than myself and I asked them Why? Their replies were not straight but in no time I learned their bias towards the orthodox religion.
Should I be happy to know that my parents came and were from Ukraine?

[ricknorth]

Good post, my friend.

My feeling is, and it is a good feeling, that Ukraine is going to burst on the World economic scene. It will take 10 to 15 years. This is contingent on Ukraine not getting nostalgic for the days of the old Soviet Union, such as the case in Belarus.

Ukraine never gained anything by being in the Soviet Union, and we know it has a poor economy, when the country is rich in culture, arable land, natural resources, resort spots, strong education.

Strong ties to the West will mean as I said an economy that bursts. Many other things play against Ukraine besides a longing for older days, that really weren't that profitable. One thing that hurts immensly is corruption. The people go from the government controlling them and the economy, to rich corrupt groups that control the economy and keep hard working mainstream people from ascending to a very comfortable level of living conditions. A second thing is paranoia and distrust. In the West the best business is still relationship business done on understanding and a handshake.

I hope to discipline myself to prayer for Ukraine; and Russia and Belarus. May God bless the lovely people of these lands as he has blessed the USA.

With Gods Blessings, Ukraine can become "Europe".

my feeling,
rickster

[ricardo]

Thanks ricknorth!
Few years ago I was shceptical of those people that used to whisper in my ears Wait! and see once Ukraine becomes independent a lot of power will be unleashed in the ancient land of Ukraine by our people!. Well ten years have gone by and nothing has come of it except what you've mentioned.
Do you think another ten years will make that much difference? Are there signs of change?
Economically I much prefer to take a non aligned line here
west ot east these days does not make a difference. Factors of production and resources (investments) move quickly around the world and it's much volatile so what can Ukraine provide in terms of it's own resources? Education and training technical know how, research and development,low barrier of entry and exit to large investments and tax legislation?.
TO me Ukraine geographically well positioned and if there is prosperity in the east no doubt Ukraine should benefit, on the other hand if there is prosperity in the west it is also likely benefit too. Ukraine can win both ways because taking historical lessons into account but not as a paranoic example but in a broader sense will be immensely beneficial.
Forget the past (No one can right the wrongs not matter how much arguments can be put forward, should be good for discusions but this is about as much as one can do) put aside stupid frictions nepotism (old days communism) and past bickering and get to work much like China and India these countries are making economic progress like mad and flooding the west with all sorts of goods even Europe is not escaping to this onslaught and yet the Germans fear of cheaper manufactures flooding from the east?
What a nonsense! Perhaps the west is narrow focus and think of itself as a self contained unit where every other country wants to fit in in a given model but not! For God's sake look beyond and draw examples of very very poor economies of Asia once the scam of the Earth! Look at them now What examples can you draw from them?

[ricknorth]

When I got out of college with a business degree 20 years ago I felt like I would automatically start prospering. Didn't happen. 10 years after college I finally started doing construction just as a laborer. 8 years later, I have my own business with 5 employees doing well. I don't look like a college grad when I'm working, but I don't care my job satisfaction is very high.

So it is in Ukraine. 1991, Ukraine becomes free and then what? Nothing. But, there will be those who will do anything to make business happen; start finding avenues of trade to the West and things will start to grow. Quickly, if corruption can be kept in check.

Right now, every shoe in America comes from China. You don't think Americans would buy a rugged, durable shoe from the CIS? Especially if it was clumsy and cloddy looking. Young kids would buy them up. Probably last longer than anything made in China.

People in Ukraine may not like to start at the bottom of the economic chain in 1991, but they will get eager enough for American dollars to start doing anything to trade with the West. Maybe, Ukraine had high level of industry and education in past, but money will drive entrepreneurs in Ukraine to start finding the "niche".

Believe me. When I left college in 1982 I thought I would be wearing a suit and tie, sitting at a desk, making big executive decisions for a career. Now, I work outdoors yearround in mud and sawdust. I couldn't be happier.

rick

[ricknorth]

Adding to above, My wish for at least ten years has been to see a team added in the NHL with a home in the CIS. With all the Russian players now in the NHL it would be great to see a Russian "hometeam". Certainly, for a long period, the teams financial success would hinge on the other NHL teams carrying it financially. Too much greed means it hasn't happened yet. And this is just shortsighted greed. To bring a team in from just over the polar ice cap that belongs already with the number of Russkie players, would long-term benefit both sides over the North Pole.

Kuchma, Lukashenko, and Putin should put their heads together to try and draw up ways to increase free trade with the West. And, they should petition for such a NHL franchise. Every city in the USA knows what good it does for tourism to host an event like the SuperBowl or the Final Four or the US OPen and such. Put the CIS in the heads of Americans and we'll come clopping over there with our US dollars wanting to see and buy ****!

rick

[ricardo]

Glad to read your comments ricknorth. We can almost mirror our experiences but my concern here is the longer Ukraine spends in the doldrums with nepotism and corruption, these in turn become harder and harder to erradicate.
No doubt that the hunger for the mighty Dollar will drive the entepreneurs to do something and let's hope this is already happening.

[zhuk]

Dear Riccardo,
As we are a stranges to each other, I may tell the true about ukrainian feellings. It is hard to find a patriot of Ukraine if you know a bit of ukrainian history.
For the last 15 years the governement of the Ukraine is trying in vain to find any heroic deeds to be shown for public in order to create a patriotism in state.
It is very hard to find any patriots here, but easy to find nationalists.
I myself is ashamed and feel pity for beeing ukrainian.
The reasons are:
1. Ukrainian literature is mostly not modern and sophisticated but a kind of village folklor.
Most writers and poets wrote either in Poland or Russian.
2. Even the military generals of Ukraine /hetmans/ never were educated and won their battles only by number of its troops. They always were brutal and cruel like Chmelnitsky and Petlyura (they killed jews and all other nations).

3. all the ideology of heroic history of Ukraine is based on the history and deeds of Ukrainian Cossaks. These cossaks here are treated as ukrainians kind of KNIGHTS.
But they were just illiterate, brutal and drunkard criminals, who fought against any rules and laws, killing and robbing all the rich people, wНmens and chilidrens.

The local ideologists are trying to make noble knights out of these criminals.
But in Ukraine were plenty of so called SCHLYACHTA (or gentelmens, nobles by origin) nobody here remember this.
Although they hve done plenty of good things for Ukraine.

For the last 15 years Ukraine gained indepedence, but for many of us it is an indepedence of the common sence and indepedence of cultural world heritage. By now, my daughter does not learn Pushkin and Dostoevsky in school, just because they are Russian. But she reads ukrainian poems about Cossaks, which have burnt the town and robbed it and are returning home with lought and songs.
thats why I am ashamed being Ukrainian. because Bohdan Chmelnitsky (criminal like Hitler of 17 century) is their hero.
I would rather say I am russian or pole.