Ukraine-Poland-Russia-Lithuania

[Lvivske]

Originally Posted by volodymyr_gusak

but this seems to be the case with Ukrainians and Poles, WHY? Can anyone answer me?
Volodya

I'll give the 'Coles Notes' version:

Poles:
This is larely due to the amount of wars that have taken place between Western Ukraine and Poland. From the UPA and Armia Krajowa battles to other periods of extreme tension, it is has just become commonplace for generations to be brought up to hate eachother. I grew up in Canada but in a Ukrainian-only school, and though (save for the few Ukie/Pole mixes) I had never knew anything about Poland or even knew Polish people....yet we were all brought up to hate Poles and think of them like the scum of the earth. This is in Canada! lol

Likewise, I have some Polish friends who described "Ukrainians are just Poles with their brains smashed out". Obviously mud being slung from both sides isn't going to cause any relief in tensions. We are national enemies and that "is the way it is"

Both countries are working towards mending the past though. NATO/Western alignment; The Euro2012 will be a big step in that direction, and the nations have done some good work over the last decade to mend bridges. The psychology of the citizens will take time though, as "time heals all wounds".



Russia:

This one puzzles me. For all they have done to us in history, on and on and on....why do they hate us? I completely understand the resentment of Ukrainians towards Russians but why this is reciprocated I have no idea.

Personally, I hold very little resentment towards Russians simply because....the Soviet era was devestating for them too. You can't hate all Germans for the Nazi's and you can't hate Russians for the Soviets. Those eras are gone so lets move forward, yes?

Perhaps it is the "motherland" ideology that Russians have burnt into their psyche, and thus we are traitors of sorts....outside of that I really don't get the continued hatred from them.

Heck, I post on a Russian-hockey forum and still get ripped on at times for being Ukrainian - but aren't Ukrainians and Russians of the same roots anyway? Kievan-Rus, the name says it all. Kiev (Ukraine) and Rus (Russia)!
I mean you get Ukrainians at times saying Ukrainian/Russian is the same thing, who cares - but you would NEVER heard a Russian say anything likewise!

[Lvivske]

Originally Posted by saberjet

Russia is using the GAS PASISNG as an economic terror weapon against Ukraine. Russia is still angry that ir lost control over Ukraine and Russia wants to rebuil it's evil empire.

The Sinatra Doctine says it all, "Do it your way". They should live with it and not be bitter!

In this day and age you can't be trying to build Empires like those of the past. If Russia would focus on a friendly and diplomatic partnership with Ukraine it would the best way to benefit both countries. Maybe they (the Kremlin) are unwilling to adapt to the economic reality of the world as it is today, but the sooner they do the sooner they "gain control" again. Not by force or mob mentality, but through the strengthening of international ties.

Example:
Rather than vehemently oppose Ukraine's desire for NATO, show Ukraine what defense benefits Russia can offer as an alternative to NATO!

Instead of making threats if we aim for Euro membership, show the perks of joining the Russia-Belarus Union!

Russia SHOULD be aiming for a Canada/US relationship between themselves and us, if they were wise...

[bm-21Lemko]

hey,

Welcome to the board.

i agree with you about the same stock. Also with bylorussians too.

But don't you agree that Russians and Ukrainians are two different people?

[Lvivske]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

But don't you agree that Russians and Ukrainians are two different people?

Yes and no. Culturally very different but ethnically not. Or at the very least it has a lot of grey area.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Lvivske

I'll give the 'Coles Notes' version:

Poles:
This is larely due to the amount of wars that have taken place between Western Ukraine and Poland.

Hi Lvivske, welcome to the board, and to this history section which used to be so interesting and full of good-level discussions at times, with fierce view crossing but without hate.
The wars you mentioned were rather between groups of people and not states because there was no Ukrainian state during WWII and Poland was bitterly partitioned between the Soviets and the Nazis.
I live close to Ukraine border (250 km only) and from my perspective, Polish-Ukrainian relations are becoming better every single year. And yes, you're right that time heals wounds. For us Poles it is sometimes even easier to talk with Kyivians than Lvivians and for Kremenchuk/Dnepropetrovsk inhabitants it it really good.

Please read some of our past posts to roughly get oriented. ...and do not trust my English too much please because I've never been to North America.

In the meantime EURO 2008 is a fascinating experience, too. A pity that there is no Ukraine present this time.

[Lvivske]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

The wars you mentioned were rather between groups of people and not states because there was no Ukrainian state during WWII

War between nations (not states) sorry

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Lvivske

Poles:
This is larely due to the amount of wars that have taken place between Western Ukraine and Poland. From the UPA and Armia Krajowa battles to other periods of extreme tension, it is has just become commonplace for generations to be brought up to hate eachother.

Obviously, the big issue here were the mass murders of civilians commited by both Poles and Ukrainians - when UPA started to murder Polish civilians (the so called "Volhynian Massacres"), many Poles who lost their families took revenge on Ukrainian civilians, which in turn caused acts of revenge in the opposite direction and the spiral grew.

I grew up in Canada but in a Ukrainian-only school, and though (save for the few Ukie/Pole mixes) I had never knew anything about Poland or even knew Polish people....yet we were all brought up to hate Poles and think of them like the scum of the earth. This is in Canada! lol

Pessimistic inquiry: did the history teachers at that school tell the children a lot about the history if OUN&UPA, but without mentioning anything about the war crimes or fascist ideology?

Likewise, I have some Polish friends who described "Ukrainians are just Poles with their brains smashed out".

Yes, anti-Ukrainian stereotypes like that are quite common in Poland.

Unfortunately, the image of Ukrainians in Poland has been heavily influenced by UPA and the mass murder of Polish civilians conducted by that organisation - when survivors of these slaughters shared their ghastly tale with the rest of the Polish population, it sort of overshadowed all the remaining information and made the Poles associate Ukrainians with brutality, agression, cruelty, etc etc.


Both countries are working towards mending the past though. NATO/Western alignment; The Euro2012 will be a big step in that direction, and the nations have done some good work over the last decade to mend bridges. The psychology of the citizens will take time though, as "time heals all wounds".

This one puzzles me. For all they have done to us in history, on and on and on....why do they hate us? I completely understand the resentment of Ukrainians towards Russians but why this is reciprocated I have no idea.

I think that the Russians consider Ukraine (especially Kiev) to be a part of Russia and they consider Ukrainians to be some kind of Russian separatists, or traitors.

Perhaps it is the "motherland" ideology that Russians have burnt into their psyche, and thus we are traitors of sorts....outside of that I really don't get the continued hatred from them.

Yes, I think this is the "motherland" way of thinking which seems to be strong in many Russians.



Michael