⌠Ukrainians■ and ⌠Russians■ = One People

[Lina]

[quote]Originally posted by Rusnak
[b]Stas,

1. Bartosz▓s statistics help shine a light on how people in Ukraine today behave and act and think, compared to other countries. As a Ukrainian American, I am ashamed if these statistics are accurate. Also, it looks like Poland is much less corrupt. Why such a difference from two countries sides by side? Different thinking? Different cultures? Different morals and ethics? Are the Ukrainians to blame or should we blame the Russians, since we blame them for almost everything else?

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It's true that Poland seems to be less corrupt...Did they just happen to have better leaders? Or may the answer lay in the past, when Poland did not have a pleasure to be one of the republics of the Soviet Union and therefore happened to end up with less scrued up mentality ?( just a piece of my crazy thinking Just do not beat me here people. I would really appreciate someone answering, or hear an opinion...of a person who knows more about history then I do.
(sorry I do not know how to get rid of this bold)

[NORRYM]

It is not for me to decide, but any rational individaal can see that this thread, having been torn to shreds, deserves to be abandoned. The originator of the thread, Rusnak himself, declared the thread ill-conceived and groundless. There is an abundance of other pertinent threads where interested individuals can pour out their thoughts and ideas.

emkay/02/24/01

[The_Last_Word]

I've got news for you, Norrym. There is not only an absence of any document calling Russia Ukraine, there is also no known record of any Ukrainians in Kievan Rus.

But if you don't trust the existing recorded history with its numerous original sources and tend to invent one for yourself and your misguided followers, it is not surprising that you choose to turn to historians who agree with your delusions, such as Davies, "an expert":

"It was in this period {circa 1380/emkay} that the Muscovites began to call their state by the Greek name for Rus', ROSSIYA {Russia}, and to call themselves Russians. These Muscovite-Russians had never ruled over Kiev; but the disability did not prevent them from regarding Moscow as the sole legitimate heir of the Kievan succession."

It is a known fact that the Byzantine Greeks called Rus Rosia (Ρωσια) as early as in the 10th century, as is evident in such documents as Constantine Porphyrogenius' ╚De administrando╩, and ╚De costrametatione╩, ch. XVIII, in Kulakovsky's "Byzantine Times."

If you still have any reasoning left, I suggest you read the following:

"уПЕЯРНЛЮРiЪ ЯРЮПН-ПСЯЙЮ ДКЪ БШЯЬХУЗ ЙКЪЯЗ ЦХЛМЮГiЪКЭМШУЗ", published in Lvov in 1881 (Lvov was in Austria at the time), has the following definition for the term "ЖЕПЙНБЭ ПНЯiИЯЙЮЪ", which can be found in a letter by Piotr Mogila: "ЖЕПЙНБЭ ПНЯiИЯЙЮЪ = ЖЕПЙНБЭ ПСЯЙЮ. мЮГБЮ ГЕЛКХ ПСЯЙНХ пНЯЯiЕЧ, МЮПНДЮ ФЕ ПСЯЙНЦН ПНЯЯiИЯЙХЛЗ ЮАН ПНЯЯЙХЛЗ, ОНЪБХКЮЯЭ БЗ ЧФМНИ пСЯХ БЗ ОЕПБНИ ОНКНБХМЕ XV БЕЙС, Х СРБНПХКЮЯЭ ЦПЮЛНРЕЪЛХ-ВСФХМЖЪЛХ БЗ пСЯХ БНДЗ ЦПЕЖЙНЦН ЯКНБЮ "пНЯЯ"." (нЦНМНБЯЙiИ н. уПЕЯРНЛЮРiЪ ЯРЮПН-ПСЯЙЮ ДКЪ БШЯЬХУЗ ЙКЪЯЗ ЦХЛМЮГiЪКЭМШУЗ, кЭБНБЗ, 1881, Я.337.)

There's more:

The first book that was published at the printshop of Kiev Pecherskaya Lavra was the Book of Hours (Chasoslov) in 1617 (before Kiev reunited with Russia). In the foreword by hierodeacon Zaharia Kopystensky, it says: "яЕ, ОПЮБНБЕПМШИ УПХЯРХЮМХМЕ Х БЯЕХ АКЮЦНБЕПМШИ ВХРЮРЕКЧ, НР МЮПНВХРШУ ЛЕЯР Б пНЯЯХХ йХИНБЯЙХУ, ЯХПЕВЭ КЮБПШ оЕВЕПЯЙХЪ...".

And more yet:

In Galicia, the Lvov Brotherhood of Orthodox Christians published a grammar book in 1591 (Lvov remained in Austria until 1918) for the education of the renowned peoples of Rossia "ЛМНЦНХЛЕМХРНЛС ПНЯЯХИЯЙНЛС ПНДС".
It also mentions the visit of Patriarch Jeremia to the lands of Russia (Rossia) "Б ЯРПЮМШ пНЯЯХИЯЙХЪ." Metropolitan Michail Ragoza of Kiev and Galicia is called "ЮПУХЕОХЯЙНОНЛ БЯЕЪ пНЯЯХХ" (Archbishop of all Rossia). In 1592, the Lvov Brotherhood addresses Tsar Feodor Ioannovich of Moscow with a request, calling him "ЯБЕРКШЛ ЖЮП╦Л пНЯЯХИЯЙХЛ" (the enlightened tsar of Rossia); the book also mentions Prince Vladimir who baprized the whole people of Rossia, "ЯБЪРНЦН ЙМЪГЪ бКЮДХЛХПЮ, ЙПЕЯРХБЬЕЦН БЕЯЭ ПНЯЯХИЯЙХИ ПНД".
It is not only in Moscow that the word Rossia was used as a modification of the word Rus, while the people continued to call themselves Russians (Russkiye, Rus'kiye).

It is not for me to decide, but any rational individaal can see that this thread, having been torn to shreds, deserves to be abandoned.

You're right, it is not for you to decide, since you can't think straight anyway, and it's not this thread that is torn to shreds but your screwed-up beliefs in a country that never existed.

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Cyrilic text can be viewed in Cyrillic (Windows) encoding.

[Stephen_Bailey]

Hey People, let's all just chill-out for a minute,Ok ?

I'm gonna get "bashed" for what I'm about to say, but I'll say it any-how.

I am British, but my Driving Licence doesn't say "British", it says - European Union (G.B.)
And my (new) Passport says European Union (UK).

I'm proud of being British, but in the interests of my (as yet un-born) children AND YOURS I put my "European-ness" first.

I hope that by the time "they" are adults their own passports will still say European Union (UK) and if enough people are prepared to put OLD antagonisms aside, yours will say - European Union (Ukraine).

The British Empire is as 'dead' as the Soviet Empire.
Isn't it about time we all tried to build a common future, instead of slagging each other off because of what "your great great grand-father did to my great great grand-father?"

my advice to Ukrainian people is, go to Kiev, kick Kuchma in the arse and build the kind of country YOU want.

A previous entry on this site said the Polish people have better leaders. Ok, that's true. But how did they get better leaders? it's because they said "screw this" and did something about it.

All criticism welcomed.

S.B.

[StasUA]

If you kick Kuchmas "arse" right now, you will never(and I mean NEVER) see Ukraine in the European Union.

The old communists created a huge fuss and confusion in Ukraine, they felt that Ukraine was too much going "west" so it was time to stop Ukraine from becoming something normal and EUROPEAN.

And now I am ashamed of all of those Ukrainians who support the <beep> communists... and name people that stole billions of dollars from Ukraine "heroes" and the biggest enemy they call "Kuchma".

It seems to me, that finally when largest enemies of Ukraine were put to jail(you know who) they seemed to have much more support than President and now Ukraine is at the edge of revolution, thansk to people who want to "kick Kuchmas arse" .

Good luck,
Stas(The anti-communist, proud Ukrainian, proud European and proud Humen)

[NORRYM]

A convenient ploy is to claim everyting where your foot once was, even if not directly, only through a bloodline, and under any pretenses. To wit, the Russian foot stepped on the Kurile Islands, on the pretense of helping to defeat the Axis {of which Japan lay ready to surrender, having been hit by A-Bombs}, and to this day Russia refuses to return them {the islands} to their rightful owner. If the USA acted so brazenly, after winning the WWII, it would remain claiming half of the world. May I remind, that the main reason, the Russians were granted the opportunity to 'help', because Roosevelt felt compassionate to Uncle Joe, Stalin. Using the well known proverb: America needed Russian help, on the Kurile Islands, like a nail in the head.

Returning to Kievan Rus' now, let us examine the contorted Russian logic. Some renegade Kievan princes left Kievan Rus', late in the XIth century, for the unclaimed lands situated in the north-easterly direction. For two centuries, after setting up new principalities, they and their heirs were preoccupied with the Mongols, and not a single 'hello' to their long forgotten cousins in Kiev. Afer a victory over the Mongols, at Kulikovo in 1380, they adopted the name Rossiya, and turned their atention to Kievan Rus'. To add to the insult, they started referring to themselves as the 'older brothers'. Any documents of those times, that the Snake cites as Russian, were Old-Slavonic - neither Russian nor Rusyn or Ukrainian languages, formally, existed then. But that is a food for a separate topic.

emkay/02/25/01

[Edited by NORRYM on 26th February 2001 at 02:57]

[Stephen_Bailey]

Stas,

What "I" want is unimportant.
it's what the people of Ukraine want that matters - and we both know what that is; a REAL democracy and the chance to have decent lives.

As 'we' all support free speech here, I'm going to be REALLY controversial and quote Hermann Goering:

" If you can't work out how to get something - just take it."

I respect your point - but I honestly think Ukraine has a real chance of being a very different country in the near future. Just a few months ago who'd have thought the people of Serbia would "kick Milosevic's arse", but they did.

I don't mean I'd like to see a "revolution" in Ukraine. That's crazy. I just can't understand why your people put up with the "****" their leaders are putting them through.
if the few peaceful protestors in Kiev suddenly turns into a couple of million then mr Kuchma will be on the first helicopter he can get to.
I think his friend across the border (Ras)Putin is already preparing for a new "house-guest".

However, you know more than me. What do you think ??

Regards.

S.B.