Mazepa - Hero or Traitor?

[Lvivske]

discuss what you think

[Dekameron]

Neither, Mazepa was a political player who wanted Ukraine to be independent but not for the sake of Ukraine (he didnt give a sh*t about the country, no one did at the time since the notion of a Ukrainian state didnt exist) he just Ukraine to be HIS, you can't measure someone by the marks of patriotism when the notion of Ukraine as a state or a nation did not exist at all.

[Spak]

Originally Posted by Lvivske

discuss what you think

From a Ukrainian perspective - Absolute Hero!

Sure there will be those non-Ukrainians who will disagree, or maybe even misguided Ukrainians who secretly want to be Russians or something who will disagree - Those who will sling insults and slander, and quote ridiculous history written by non-Ukrainians that have some kind of personality disorder that makes them driven to tell Ukrainians what the "real" Ukrainian history is. But I say ignore them... let them set their hair on fire if they want.

We know who we are. We will sing and dance and celebrate life as our Kozak ancestors have always done. And if we want a history lesson, we will take it from a Ukrainian historian like Hrushevsky or the likes.


Best Regards,
Спак

[Lvivske]

Wow, finally some responses!

I have to say neither. I actually wrote an essay / did a lot of research on the topic and both schools of historiography emphasize and omit relevant facts to construct their more storybook idea of "Mazepa" the character rather than the man.

I agree that he was a political player. Tatiana Tairova-Yakovleva's new book, Mazepa, shows an unbiased look at him from this light as a statesman above else.


anyway, was he a traitor? Well that depends. Did he break the Pereyaslav agreement by trying to separate? Well, Peter provided no defense and didn't live up to his end of the deal either. That said, Mazepa definitely broke the Kolomak treaties and knew full well what they entailed. He also tried to get us to join Poland, and told military secrets and other things to Leszczynski. How is that not being a traitor? And then on top of that you have him trying to get the polish Hetman Sieniawski to seize the Polish crown so Mazepa can join him! He was playing all sides possible. As well, you have him telling Peter will NEVER send a single Cossack to fight for Sieniawski in Poland, but then him telling Sieniawski that "the cossacks will follow you no matter what"!. He was absolutely a liar and traitor. Hell, his own men didn't even follow him. He commanded tens of thousands throughout the war, but only a couple thousand followed him, the rest left and remained loyal.

Was he a hero? Even Menshikov (Peter's replacement for Mazepa) was quoted as saying Mazepa was doing it for the Ukrainian people. He definitely gave the impression of caring of his people. Did he care? I mean, he had no problem sending many to their deaths in St Petersburg, or more to fight in the Great Northern War. He still blindly obeyed Russian leadership when Russian troops were killing innocents and raping women in the countryside. Despite Ukraine's hardships, Mezepa was loyal to Peter until the end - that is, until Peter betrayed him.

Another point - for such a "hero", he certianly had no support from the Zaporozhians his entire tenure. As well, he fought the Don cossacks for trying to go against the Tsar. Mazepa was very much a pro-Russian up until when his power was threatened and outside of his own pro-Tsar men, was anti-Cossack


All sides were guilty in this mess.He was surely a traitor but so was Peter. He was considered a hero but he has a lot against him in this regard as well.

[Spak]

Lvivske,

I have to apologize in advance. Due to commitments to work, sports, play, etc. I am never able to respond as much as I would like too. If I don't reply to posts, don't take it personally. It's just my schedule.

Anyway today I have time so with regards to the subject matter ....



" ... judgments of value about life, for it or against it, can in the end never be true: they have value only as symptoms, they are worthy of consideration only as symptoms; in themselves such judgments are meaningless. One must stretch out one's hands and attempt to grasp this amazing subtlety, that the value of life cannot be estimated. Not by the living, for they are an interested party... "

from "Twilight of the Idols" - Friedrich Nietzsche [1895]


I love these words. Each one of us, an "interested party." i.e. self-interested party. We all, myself included, view life from the perspective of our own self-interests - it's the human condition. We can't escape it. Everything we do and say reflects that - including what is written by "historians". And instead of truth what we get from people (under the guise of historical fact, or whatever) is really more of a symptom of their own self interests than evidence of truth.

So while I encourage and applaud any person to research and study, it must always be in the forefront of ones mind as to who the source of any information is, and what their self-interests are likely to be.

So to be clear, my interest is in Ukrainian Culture. I am interested in the Ukrainian events, circumstances, and people that give strength and definition to Ukrainian culture. And while it is obvious that nobody is pure, I prefer not to "throw out the baby with the bath-water."

If somebody, some group of people, wants to examine the bath-water; determine if there is feces in it; determine how much urine was excreted into it; determine how many times, and what volume of farting the baby performed while in the bath-water - so be it. But I am not interested in immersing myself in that study.


In this case the "baby" is the Kozaky (Cossacks if you wish to write it that way.) The uplifting story I see is one of a culture that exalts the human capacity for, and in fact seizes the inalienable human rights to liberty, individualism, freedom, and the love of life. This they claimed in the face of inhuman oppression from Poles, Russians,Turks, and the like. They persevered through inhuman conditions, atrocities, and treason with unreasonable odds for success against them. And in the face of all of this they fought, they danced, they sang, and they embraced a free life to the fullest.
It is a kind of "David and Goliath" story, but even more incredible. The Kozak story has been a source of strength to oppressed people world-wide, and an inspiration to those whose guard freedom. It has inspired greatness in many people. There has been an epic amount of inspirational literature, and film produced about it world-wide. It is really something to be proud of. It represents some very noble qualities of Ukrainian culture that should be celebrated and never lost. In my opinion it is important to celebrate the side of Mazepa that is part of this wonderful group - Not to spend to much time worrying about his frailties.

Having said that, I know there will be dogs who will be barking, and anti-Ukrainians that will be setting their hair on fire. So be it.

Just my $.02. Nothing more.


Best Regards,
Спак

[Lvivske]

I have so far failed to see this wonderful side to Mazepa. Can you elaborate? On the paper I wrote on this subject, I was hoping that I would find both Russian and Ukrainian views to be equally flawed but found the latter to be more removed from the truth when assessing the actual actions. Many journalists and diplomats of the time sided with Mazepa/Sweden...I'm not sure if this is just being anti-Russian or what, but outside of a few stray quotes I fail to see actual actions where Mazepa exhibited either this spirit of Kozak freedom or Ukrainian liberation. The only flaw I saw with the Russian side was that it was an exaggerated truth, and that Peter the "Great" was just as much a traitor, and deserving of the consequences that bestowed him.

That said, I agree with everything else you say.

[Dekameron]

Originally Posted by Lvivske

I have so far failed to see this wonderful side to Mazepa. Can you elaborate?

There's non, bar made-up history thought in Ukrainian schools and primitive nationalists spouting nonsence.]]


Bottom line is Mazepa wanted to rule his own duchy, he was ready and willing to sell "his people" without a blink, his compatriots saw him for what he was, a deeply manipulative power hungry political player.

Is Ukraine really so poor in tradition that it has to make up its heroes?