Ukrainian royalty?

[dobko]

yes, you have a right to your opinion..... but the facts speak for themself. I stick to my statment.

[Dekameron]

Originally Posted by dobko

yes, you have a right to your opinion..... but the facts speak for themself. I stick to my statment.

But what facts ? Nothing in your post indicates ukrainian nobility, in fact it only reinforces my point by saying "cossacks became nobles".

Ukraine as a nation exists for barely 120-130 years, find me one statement of a fellow before 1850 where he claims "i am ukrainian".

Of course you have a right to build your own history but there's a trap there, russian history is a steaming pile of propaganda and apologetic lies for their own crimes, having a false history tailored to your own patriotic feelings can be damaging.

Also to make my point, Obama is American despite being black. Jeremi Wiśniowiecki was Polish despite being Ruthenian and Mazepa was a Cossack despite being Ruthenian.

You cant assign specific nationality to people who had no concept nor desire of it.

[Dekameron]

Originally Posted by dobko

Really? lol you made me laugh on this statement. I am Ruthenian/Ukrainian

You mean about Jeremi Wiśniowiecki who spoke polish/latin converted himself to catholicism and considered himself Polish or about ruthenian nobility which felt tied to Poland, Cossacks, Russia or considered itself independent ?

[dobko]

Originally Posted by Dekameron

But what facts ? Nothing in your post indicates ukrainian nobility, in fact it only reinforces my point by saying "cossacks became nobles".

Ukraine as a nation exists for barely 120-130 years, find me one statement of a fellow before 1850 where he claims "i am ukrainian".

Of course you have a right to build your own history but there's a trap there, russian history is a steaming pile of propaganda and apologetic lies for their own crimes, having a false history tailored to your own patriotic feelings can be damaging.

Also to make my point, Obama is American despite being black. Jeremi Wiśniowiecki was Polish despite being Ruthenian and Mazepa was a Cossack despite being Ruthenian.

You cant assign specific nationality to people who had no concept nor desire of it.

So what you are saying..... because Ukraine wasn't yet recognized, anyone from the region isn't Ukrainian until after that date? Better do some research before you answer.

[Dekameron]

Originally Posted by dobko

So what you are saying..... because Ukraine wasn't yet recognized, anyone from the region isn't Ukrainian until after that date? Better do some research before you answer.

No i'm not saying about recognition, screw recognition you guys started being a nation when you started feeling like one and polish or any other recognition is not required.

The point is most of the guys you listed come from a time when Ukraine as a state and a nation was a fairly new idea and they didn't really assosiate with it.

By ukrainian nobility i mean that there exists a state or a nation of Ukrainian people and its representatives are of noble birth, instead we have an ethnically ruthenian region which representatives identify themselves with many groups that have regional influence ( ie Poles, Russians, Austrians and so forth ).

[dobko]

Ok, I will get back to you as soon as I can.

btw- welcome to the boards, I'm enjoying our conversations.

[dobko]

The Ukrainians have had a distinctive Nationality from the Sixth century.









Commencement of Ukrainian Nationalism

Beginning with the Sixth century the Ukrainians began to build up their territory by intensive agricultural production, and by extensive trade with the Byzantine Empire. The chief town, Kiev, later became the capital of the Ukrainian State, as it controlled the great basin of the Dnieper River and also the highway leading to the Black Sea and Byzantium. These developments served to create their own distinctive Nationalism.

It should be remembered that from the Sixth to the Tenth centuries, Byzantium was considered the nnost civilized country in Europe or Western Asia. It was, therefore, quite natural that the Ukrainians were for centuries influenced by this Byzantine civilization.

About the year 859 A.D. the Norsemen (under the name Varangs) came to rule the lands of the Ukrainians. Soon there was one large state with the Scandinavian dynasty of Rurik, reigning at Kiev. It was also about this time, that other Scandinavians founded a similar dynasty in England. At the beginning, the Ukrainian rulers were usually called Princes, and later on Hetmen.

In 914 A.D. Prince Igor became the Ukrainian ruler, and his wife Olga was one of the first of royalty to be converted to Christianity – about the year 945 A.D. She has been canonized as St. Olga. Her grandson, Prince Vladimir, became one of the outstanding men in Ukrainian history.



St. Vladimir the Great

It is recorded that Prince Vladimir, while still a pagan, sent envoys to the neighbouring countries for information concerning their religions. They reported adversely regarding the Jews of Khazar, and the Bulgarians who then followed Mohammed, and the German Christians with their Latin rite. But they were pleased with the solemn Greek rite of the Catholic Church of St. Sophia in Constantinople. (The City of Byzantium had its name changed to Constantinople by the Roman Emperor Constantine about 325 A.D., but it is now called Istanbul.)

As a result of this investigation, Vladimir was baptized in the year 988 A.D. Shortly after this momentous event in Ukrainian history, he married the Catholic Princess Anna, a sister of the Christian Emperor Basil II of Constantinople.

Vladimir then returned to Kiev, and arranged for the conversion of his subjects the Ukrainian people, who were willingly baptized as Catholics. He built churches and monasteries in different cities. In the year 989 he erected the large Church of St. Mary ever Virgin (usually called the Cathedral of the Tithes), and in 996 the Church of the Transfiguration, both in the City of Kiev. He then gave up his warlike career and devoted himself prin­cipally to the government of his people. He established schools, introduced ecclesiastical courts, and became known for his mildness and for his zeal in spreading the Christian faith. Vladimir has been canonized as Saint Vladimir, and his feast day is July 15th. His two sons, Boris and Gleb, are known as Saints Roman and David from their baptismal names.



Culture in the 10th and 11th centuries


The good influence of the great Ukrainian rulers of that era began to be felt in distant places. Then, too, the enlightenment brought about by Christianity helped all, for it was found that the new Christian moral teaching was very successful in overcoming the pagan coarseness.

During the 10th and 11th centuries, the Ukrainians also widened their sphere of trade and increased their wealth, as they came into contact with several different nations. In that period the Ukrainian state had so branched out, that it extended across Eastern Europe from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea.

In the 11th century the city of Kiev, because of its high level of culture, was recognized as one of the greatest in Europe. One traveller who visited that metropolis, in the year 1018, left a description in which he relates that it contained 400 churches, 8 market places and “countless numbers of people.” Another visitor to the same city, in the year 1072, refers to it as a rival of Constantinople, and “Jewel of Greece.”

The architectural grandeur of the Ukraine of that age has come down to us. The beautiful church of Saint Sophia, built by the Ukrainian prince Yaroslav the Wise, was finished in 1037. It was the same prince, who placed the Ukraine under the protection of the Mother of God.

We also have the remnants of other buildings with their wonderful sculptures, frescoes and mosaics.

Several outstanding Literary relics of that time have been preserved. Besides the translation of the Bible, and writings of the Fathers of the Church, we have works of fiction and a series of compilations on Geography and Astronomy.



Invasion and the Cossacks

All this culture and prosperity, together with the lackof protecting natural barriers, made the country subject to plotting, and then to terrible invasions from several tribes and nations. During the 11th and 12th centuries, the Ukraine bore the brunt of many ferocious battles, when the Asiatic hordes from the East tried to break through in order to pillage and overrun the nations of Europe.

In the 13th century there occurred the most devastating of all invasions, when the Tartars under Mongol leadership swarmed over the land. In 1223 the Ukrainian army was defeated. Kiev was captured in 1240, under the direction of the Great Khan. (His full name was Chingiz Khan Temuchin, and he was elected in 1206 and died in 1242).

Then began a system of ruin and devastation, and a period known in the history of the Ukraine as the “Yoke of the Tartars.” Every Ukrainian Prince had to be confirmed to his right to his throne by the Khan, and had to pay homage to him and bring rich gifts.

On one occasion, in 1245, the Ukrainian Prince Daniel sought help from Pope Innocent IV against the invaders. After the Mongol-Tartar inva­sion, the home lands of the Ukrainians passed first under Lithuanian rule in 1370, and later, in 1569, under the King of Poland.

During the second half of the 16th century, another national development took place in the Ukraine. Owing to the dangers arising from the proximity of the Tartars in the Crimea and the hazards of frontier life, a special organization known as the Cossacks grew and developed. The Cos­sacks had their own elective officers, a system of Justice and Administrative rule, and their elected leader was called “The Hetman.” He soon came to be recognized as the leader of the Ukrainian State.

Probably the most outstanding, Hetman was Bohdan Khmelnitsky, who received his early training in the Jesuit colleges at Lwow and Yaroslav in Western Ukraine. He was a great ruler, besides being a man of military and organizing genius. He died on August 6, 1657, at the age of 62, after having fought for his country for 37 years.

The Cossacks finally revolted against the foreign ruler, and in the middle of the 17th century threw off that control. In the meantime the cultural life in Kiev again flourished. This renewed activity associated the people with the traditions of the Ukrainian State of old. The rise of the Cossacks brought the Ukraine once more into prominence throughout Europe.

The Cossacks, however, found it difficult to maintain freedom from foreign hostility, Turkish expansion, Tartar treachery and the ambitions of the Czars. In 1654 the Cossacks entered into treaty relations with th Czar, which guaranteed the autonomy of the Ukraine. But notwithstanding this treaty, the Czar made an agreement with another nation in 1667 by which the Ukraine was divided between them.

In 1795, as a result of the first partitioning of Poland, Russia was given control of the larger part of the Ukrainian lands. The Ukrainian people were then reduced to a low ebb in their national and social life.

After the Napoleonic Wars (1798 to 1815), the largest section of the Ukraine was left to Russia, but Austria retained the Provinces of Galicia and Bukovina which were largely inhabited by Ukrainians.

*This was written in 1943 by JAMES F. COUGHLIN, K.C.* and was written for the Catholic church. They aknowledged the Ukrainian people and their royalty since 914 A.D.