Ukrainian royalty?

[Dekameron]

Ukraine never had any royalty so to speak, the ruthenian princess were not ukrainian, its the same as if you argued that germanic tribes were German, any ukrainian princess that existed existed long before Ukraine became a country or a nation.

As for imperial Russia, no the ukrainian nobility was not given royalty status for the simple fact that ruthenian nobility was not of particularly high standing.

[dobko]

just a few names....

Rurik Dynasty
Prince of Tver
Grand Prince of Moscow
A
Aleksandr Mikhailovich of Tver
Alexander Nevsky
Andrei I Bogolyubsky
Andrew of Galicia
Andrey II of Vladimir
Andrey of Gorodets
Anna of Moscow
B
Aleksandr Baryatinskiy
Boris Mikhailovich
D
Daniel of Galicia
Daniel of Moscow
Dmitri of Tver
Alexander Dmitriev-Mamonov
Dmitry Donskoy
Dmitry Shemyaka
Dmitry of Pereslavl
Dmitry of Suzdal
Princess Helene Dolgoruki
Vasily Lukich Dolgorukov
Dolgorukov
Pavel Dolgorukov
Pyotr Dolgorukov
Vasily Andreyevich Dolgorukov
Catherine Dolgorukov
Franciszek Ksawery Drucki-Lubecki
F
Nikolai Fyodorovich Fyodorov
Feodor I of Russia
G
Gagarin family
Gleb of Kiev
Alexander Gorbatyi-Shuisky
Gorchakov
Aleksey Gorchakov
Alexander Mikhailovich Gorchakov
Pyotr Gorchakov
I
Igor of Kiev
Ivan Ilyin
Ivan I of Moscow
Ivan II of Moscow
Ivan III of Russia
Ivan IV of Russia
Ivan Ivanovich (Son of Ivan IV)
K
Khilkov
Konstantin of Rostov
Pyotr Kozlovsky
Peter Kropotkin
Pyotr Nikolaevich Kropotkin
Kunigunda of Slavonia
K cont.
Andrey Kurbsky
L
Lev I of Galicia
Lev II of Galicia
Aleksey Lobanov-Rostovsky
Lvov princely family
Alexei Lvov
Georgy Lvov
Zakhary Lyapunov
Prokopy Lyapunov
M
Mikhail II of Tver
Mikhail Khorobrit
Mikhail Yaroslavich
Mikhail of Vladimir
Mstislav II of Kiev
Mstislav Mstislavich
Mstislav Rostislavich
Mussorgsky family
Modest Mussorgsky
Raissa Myshetskaya
O
Obolensky
Alexander Obolensky
Dimitri Obolensky
Ivan Obolensky
Vladimir Odoevsky
Michał Kazimierz Ogiński
Michał Kleofas Ogiński
Tadeusz Franciszek Ogiński
Aleksander Ostrogski
Anna Alojza Ostrogska
Daniil Ostrogski
Elizaveta Ostrogska
Feodor Ostrogski
Ilia Ostrogski
Janusz Ostrogski
Katarzyna Ostrogska (1602–1642)
Katarzyna Ostrogska (1560–1579)
Konstanty Ostrogski
Teofilia Ludwika Zasławska
Konstanty Wasyl Ostrogski
Władysław Dominik Zasławski
Zofia Ostrogska
P
Dmitry Pozharsky
Prozorovsky
Alexander Prozorovsky
Putyatin (family)
R
Repnin
Anikita Repnin
Nicholas Repnin
Roman I of Kiev
Roman the Great
Romodanovsky
R cont.
Fyodor Romodanovsky
Grigory Romodanovsky
Rostislav Mikhailovich
S
Mikhail Shcherbatov
Shuisky
Dmitry Shuisky
Simeon of Moscow
Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky
Prince of Smolensk
Sviatopolk I of Kiev
Sviatoslav I of Kiev
Sviatoslav II of Kiev
Sviatoslav III of Kiev
Sviatoslav III of Vladimir
T
Jacques Tati
Vasily Tatishchev
U
Dmitry Ukhtomsky
Esper Ukhtomsky
Uliana of Tver
V
Vasily I of Moscow
Vasily II of Moscow
Vasili III of Russia
Vasili IV of Russia
Vasily of Kostroma
Viacheslav I of Kiev
Vladimir I of Kiev
Vladimir II Mstislavich
Peeter Volkonski
Andrei Volkonsky
Pyotr Mikhailovich Volkonsky
Volodar of Peremyshl
Vorotynsky
Vsevolod the Big Nest
Vsevolod IV of Kiev
Vsevolod of Pskov
Ivan Vsevolozhsky
Pyotr Vyazemsky
W
Anne Wiazemsky
Y
Yaropolk I of Kiev
Yaropolk II of Kiev
Yaropolk Izyaslavich
Yaroslav II of Vladimir
Yaroslav of Tver
Yaroslav Osmomysl
Yaroslavl Belsky family
Yuri I of Galicia
Yuri II of Vladimir
Yuri Vasilevich (son of Vasili IIl)
Yury Dmitrievich
Yury of Moscow
Z
Aleksander Janusz Zasławski


Seems to me there is a lot of mixed nobility, coming from all over Eastern Europe. Saying that one family is less noble than another because of the change in borders is just your pride speaking.

They are all linked..... they are all Slavic...... they all started from the same place.... Ukrainian/Polish/Russian......

[Dekameron]

None of the people you mentioned was Ukrainian, not a single one.

Ukrainian national identity was born at the end of 19 century, before that all these people were ruthenian by ethnicity and russian by nationality.

If you asked any of the Rurikovich dynasty about Ukraine he would go "what the hell is Ukraine" there is no connection between Ukraine and these people other than broad ethnicity before that no one ever thought of Ukraine as a nation and the only conscious political class of Ukraine were the Cossacks and they're the only ones who can be deemed as predecessors to a modern ukrainian nation.

Everyone else you mentioned is russian, sometimes ruthenian by birth but russian by nationality.

There is a major difference between Ruthenians and Ukrainians, i realise that you're a young country in search of history but lets not stretch it with pride induced propaganda shall we ?

Oh and one more thing i'm not saying ukrainian nobility was less noble, i'm saying that ukrainian nobility did not exist at all, it was all polish, russian or ruthenian, Ukraine was a geographical region inhabited by various nationalities mainly ruthenian, ruthenian people were not Ukrainians.

[Dekameron]

Originally Posted by Kathy

Ukraine's nobility was indeed "equalized" to Russia's nobility. This first occurred under Peter the Great.

As i adressed before, there was no Ukraine's nobility it was ruthenian, these people had no concept of Ukraine, they themselves referred to themselves as either russian or polish, take Jeremi Wiśniowiecki for example.

[dobko]

Russian rule. In spite of the fact that Russia and then the Russian Empire had continually expanded its influence over the administration of Ukraine, the starshyna and regimental structure of the Hetman state had been left intact. That state of affairs changed quickly and completely under Catherine II. She abolished the office of the hetman (1764), had the Zaporozhian Sich destroyed (1775), and dismantled the regimental system in favor of provincial administration (1782). Notwithstanding the fact that its autonomy and territorial base had been taken away, the Ukrainian elite did not protest the changes. Instead it moved quickly to adapt itself to the new circumstances. The smoothness of the transition was aided by several factors. The governor-general of Ukraine, Petr Rumiantsev, had made specific efforts to prevent overt dissent from manifesting itself and had opened numerous governmental positions to noblemen or their sons in Ukraine. The institution of provincial administration was followed in 1783 by a ukase that established the complete serfdom of the Ukrainian peasantry. Finally Catherine II proclaimed a new Charter of the Nobility in 1785 that allowed for the incorporation of the Cossack starshyna into the Russian nobility. The starshyna had long sought legal recognition of its social status but had been hesitant to incorporate itself with the less privileged Russian nobility. The 1785 charter brought the privileges of Russian nobles (dvorianstvo) much in line with those of the szlachta. A wholesale quest for patents of nobility, sometimes with the aid of fabricated documentation, followed.

The starshyna gentry generally benefitted materially from its integration into the dvorianstvo system, particularly the petty gentry, which found considerable opportunity for advancement in the imperial service. At the same time Ukrainians experienced some unique problems in defining themselves within the broader context of the Russian Empire. Some chose total assimilation to the implicitly Russian culture and language. In its extreme form that response took the form of oversubscribing to the values of the dominant culture, in effect becoming ‘more Russian than the Russians’ and sometimes developing an outright disdain for Ukrainian traditions. Less dramatically, some developed a sense that Ukraine was in fact culturally inferior to Russia, the so-called Little Russian mentality, which implied deference to Great Russians. A more common response was a desire to integrate into the imperial system but to maintain certain institutional vestiges of the Hetman state. That response was a sentiment rather than a structured movement, and it focused on matters such as Ukraine's distinct legal code and a desire to have separate Ukrainian Cossack military formations. The nobility's reverence for Ukraine's Cossack heritage was challenged by the difficulties many experienced in obtaining their patents, in that the imperial Heraldic Office commonly questioned the validity of Ukrainian titles. The result was protests from the former starshyna gentry and a wide search for documents related to Ukraine's past, which ultimately served only to reinforce a sense of local patriotism.

In Right-Bank Ukraine, acquired by the Russian Empire through the partitioning of Poland, the rights of the local gentry were made equal with those of its Russian counterparts, although its szlachta privileges were limited. Initially the nobility retained its social status as a ruling class and contributed significantly to culture and education (eg, by establishing the Kremianets Lyceum). The Polish nobility consisted of a small number of magnates, independent landowners, and impoverished lesser aristocrats who were commonly employed as administrators or stewards on larger estates. In general the magnates integrated themselves quickly into the dvorianstvo system and were loyal to the empire, whereas the lesser nobility maintained a sense of Polish patriotism and hoped to restore Poland to its status before the partitions.

After the Polish Insurrection of 1830–1 Russian policy toward the nobility changed significantly. Nearly 10,000 participants in the revolt were prosecuted and had their holdings confiscated. A campaign was begun to verify aristocratic status, aimed at destroying the szlachta nobility as a foreign element within the Russian system. Lasting approx 20 years under the direction of the governor-general, Dimitrii Bibikov, the action stripped 340,000 individuals of their status as nobles: 72,000 in 1832–3, 93,000 in 1834–9, 160,000 in 1840–6, and 15,000 in 1846–53. The lesser, poor, and generally, landless nobility suffered. After the verification some 70,000 Poles (nearly 17,500 families) entrenched their claims to nobility. They were primarily large to middle landowners (szlachta ziemiańska), who controlled nearly three million serfs. The majority of the legally recognized nobility supported the Russian government, forsook its persecuted countrymen, and was indifferent to all revolutionary movements. Later it sought to integrate itself into Russian society. After the Polish Insurrection of 1863–4, in which a section of the nobility once again took part, further limitations on noble participation in political, community, and cultural life were imposed.

In spite of the Polish domination of the Right-Bank nobility several pro-Ukrainian movements developed. The khlopoman movement emerged in the late 1850s, and a Ukrainophile movement headed by Viacheslav Lypynsky emerged among the Polonized Ukrainian gentry at the end of the 19th century. But the position of the nobility in Right-Bank Ukraine did not change until after the Revolution of 1917. At that time Polish efforts to guarantee special rights for Polish landowners in Ukraine resulted in special provisions in the Treaty of Warsaw. Those provisions, however, were abrogated with the establishment of Soviet power in Ukraine and the end of the nobility as a class.

Western Ukraine. In Ukrainian territories under the Austrian Empire the nobility on Ukrainian territory enjoyed the same rights as its counterparts elsewhere in Austria. Initially, Joseph II's reforms limited the rights of the Polish aristocracy. After his death in 1790, however, the nobility gradually came to control large sectors of the empire's administrative structure and was able to influence highly placed Austrian officials. The Polish nobility's influence increased even more during the tenure of the Galician vicegerent, Agenor Gołuchowski (1849–75, with interruptions). In the interwar Polish state (with Ukrainian territories in its eastern reaches) the nobility as a social class was legislated out of existence (1921). Nevertheless the landed aristocracy maintained its extensive political and economic influence.

In Bukovyna the Ukrainian nobility over time assimilated with the Moldavian-Romanian elite of the region. Under Austria (from 1774) the administrative structure was controlled by Romanian boyars, who later complained about Bukovyna's reconstitution into an administrative unit of Galicia (1787–1849). A government decree of 14 March 1787 gave the Bukovynian and Galician nobilities equal status. Even after the establishment of a constitutional monarchy in 1848, the Romanian nobility continued to have great influence in Bukovyna as a result of the curial electoral system.

[dobko]

Originally Posted by Dekameron

As i adressed before, there was no Ukraine's nobility it was ruthenian, these people had no concept of Ukraine, they themselves referred to themselves as either russian or polish, take Jeremi Wiśniowiecki for example.

Really? lol you made me laugh on this statement. I am Ruthenian/Ukrainian

[Dekameron]

So what you basically said is that "Cossacks became nobility".

Again the text omits the fact that the ukrainian elite was ruthenian/polish/cossack and there were no Ukrainians in the sense that you could say Germans or Russians.

As for pro ukrainian movements they pop up in the second half of the century with their peak some five decades later but at the time described there is still no ukrainian nation or ukrainian identity, these people have nothing in common with Ukraine as it is today.

According to the twisted logic that claims Ukraine as a state had historically royalty or high nobility we can say that Obama is a citizen of Africa because he's black.

Ethnicity means little, its the awareness and feeling of identity that matter added to the fact that Ukraine did not exist as a country, Cossacks wanted independent Ukraine but that would be a Cossack state not a ukrainian one.

I can agree that Ukraine of today has some nobility since there was people and noble families that either rose to nobility feeling ukrainian identity or aquired it but all that was later on and you simply cannot lay claim to any royalty or high nobility because the only connection is ethnicity and even that is often vague.