One year late:

[vladmir]

One year later:
- none information by LDS: it seems me that the region films never came from us, here in Brazil;
- no contacts with the Central State Historical Archives of Ukraine in Kiev, no e-mail answers, the e-mail addresses are not correct. It is better to try by common letter?
- Khmelnytska Oblast Archives: the only one answer that I had was which the archive was in fire, a long time ago;
- Brokgauz information and http://www.tovtry.km.ua sustains my grandfather data the in places citations of Kamenets: streets, squares, boulevards, bridge, etc.;
- undoubted in 1885 he studying in Kamenets, he was 15 to 16 years old, and in his school notebook was written the the places, a few facts and many names, includind teachers and, probably, preceptors;
- frequently he gone to the ⌠bursa■ (I have not a sure interpretation about this) and the Sundays to the Troytski Monastyr and sometimes to the ⌠Novyi Sobor■;
- at this time the school matters were; Russian, Greek, Slavonic, Latin, History,
Geography, Algebra, Geometry and ⌠Zakon Bozhi■ (God▓s Laws- Catechism?);
- in 1893, when he was in Brazil, he received in Kamenets a postcard in which was
the address: ⌠Utesistaya ul., d.kn. Khulkovoyi■. The address may be confirmed by the tovtry site;
- if these facts are true it may be true too that Mykhail Petrovych Slyvych are truly born in Kamenets, as he said for his brazilian documentation.

Face to this, who could help me to analyze these data? I think that by this way, perhaps, may be discovered a few documentation.


[Edited by vladmir on 20th February 2006 at 09:48]

[SweetNovember]

bursa is a kind of school, i don't remember exactly, but think it meant a technical school.

[Serhii]

Hello Vladmir,

I think he might have been born in Kamenets. For sure it wasn't West Ukraine.

The address “Utesistaya ul., d.kn. Khulkovoyi”. looks strange. It is in Russian ( name of a stree) , but what doest that d.kn. mean ? Have you any idea ? It could be
'dom kniagini ' ( a house of princess Khulkova ). Did his relatives have any relation to this house ?

Bursa at that time was a kind of religious schools. It did not give serious fundamental education.The word by itself is very funny and is still used in colloquial language to make a joke or so. Now it has another meaning than it was in 19th century.

- at this time the school matters were; Russian, Greek, Slavonic, Latin, History,
Geography, Algebra, Geometry and “Zakon Bozhi” (God’s Laws- Catechism?);
It is a very serious schedule ( rather for a gymnasium , not for bursa as for me ).

To prove all it I'd try to find Troitskyi Monastyr - it can exists even now. Novyi Sobor can be a new ( at that time )church. Their location could help you as well. But I think it was Kamenets indeed.

[Hannia]

Serhii, does this show that Orthodox Records are available for Kamenets Podilskij, the city?

ТНМДХ, ЫН ЛЁЯРЪРЭ ЦЕМЕЮКНЦЁВМС ЁМТНПЛЮЖЁЧ (ОПЮБНЯКЮБМЮ РЮ ПХЛН-ЙЮРНКХЖЭЙЮ ЙНМЯХЯРНПЁ©, ПЮБЁМЮРХ оНДЁКЭЯЭЙН© ЦСАЕПМЁ©, ЖЕПЙБХ, ЙНЯРЭНКХ оНДЁКЭЯЭЙН© РЮ бНКХМЯЭЙН© ЦСАЕПМЁИ).

?????? ? ???????: ??????? ???????? ?????? ???????:
http://www.archives.gov.ua/Archives/index.php?ra22#KP
_______________________________________________________________

Vlad, It seems that Kamenets Podilskij Records will now be available thru Khmelnytska
Oblast Archives. If I read above correctly, orthodox church records are available for city.
Serhij should be able to confirm this.

юДПЕЯЮ: БСК. цПСЬЕБЯЭЙНЦН, 99, Л. уЛЕКЭМХЖЭЙХИ, 29000
рЕК.: (0382) 76-47-39, 79-27-74
E-mail: dahmo@hm.ukrtel.net
рПЮМЯОНПР: РПНК. ╧ 4 (ГСО. "нАКЮЯМЮ АЁАКЁНРЕЙЮ"), ╧ 7, 7Ю (ГСО. "тЁКЮПЛНМЁЪ")
вЮЯ ПНАНРХ: ОМ.-ВР. 8:00-17:15; ОР. 8:00-16:00
дХПЕЙРНП: яКНАНДЪМЧЙ оЕРПН ъЙНБХВ
гЮЯРСОМХЙ ДХПЕЙРНПЮ: нЯЮДВЮ цЮКХМЮ цПХЦНПЁБМЮ
гЮЯРСОМХЙ ДХПЕЙРНПЮ: йЮПБЮМ яРЮМЁЯКЮБЮ кЧДБЁЙЁБМЮ
гЮЯРСОМХЙ ДХПЕЙРНПЮ: лХУЮИКНБЮ яБЁРКЮМЮ пНЛЮМЁБМЮ

PS>In order to view Cyrillic letters, please place your cursor anywhere on this window where it is blank. Right click mouse once. Left click ENCODING. Left click CYRILLIC WINDOWS.

[Edited by Hannia on 23rd February 2006 at 10:42]

[vladmir]

The address is strange to me, too, exactly by the d. kn. and the princess name.
The Utesystaya ulitsa exists in Kamyanets-Podilskyi.Maps and photos of this street is shown in the tovtry site.
A lot o places, not only, Novy Sobor, Troytski Monastyr ,as I wrote for e.g., are in the Kamyanets map in the mentioned internet site.
It seems me that Serhii finds strange the address in Russian but, to me, it was the official language at that time.
I have no idea about the relation of my ancestors and this Khulkov family.
I only know that my g. grandmother was of polish nobility and land proprietary in decadency: Leczynski or Laczinski, in Russian version, probably Lechitsky (as Platon Alekseyevich Lechitsky).
I know too, that in the WWI there was an important military relative, it may be Platon A.
It is sure to me that my g. father studied in a religious school or in Kamyanets gymnasium, not in the bursa.
The term bursa is Latin and the Serhi explanation seems me probably sure. The bursas was the same thing that the brotherhood schools?
To distinguish this is to localize possible place for documentation search.
I wrote to Mrs. Stelmach in office@arhiv.kp.km just at the time of the fire was in the archive and that was the first and the last answer that I received. Nothing in posterior letters.
No answers at dahmo@hm.ukr.net. I will try again.

[Hannia]

At the time this region was called
Podolskaya Gubernia > Czarist Russia.

Vlad, it seems that there are also gymnazium school records available for Kamenets Podolsky, the city???

Have you seen this?
Russian Books Catalog. Brokgauz i Efron entsiklopediia : v 86 tomakh s illiustratsiiami i dopolnitel'nymi materialami (6 CD),.. http://www.eastview.com/xq/ASP/sku=I...ks/product.asp




[Edited by Hannia on 23rd February 2006 at 12:14]

[Serhii]

Hi Hannia and Vladmir,

I read information in Ukrainian and visited links you mentioned. After a big fire they took all materials from Kamianets archive and moved them to Khmel'nytskyj ( current oblast' center ). Even more - materials from Volyn' are there as well. Now they offer almost evrything indeed.
Genealogic materials of three main denominations are available ( Orthodox, Roman-Catholic and Jewish).

Once I worked with church records in our local archive and have to say that they contain full information ( the best one).

They mention as well The male gymnazium records.

The name Leczynski and all other forms you gave look strange
as for me. Do you know Ukrainian/Russian /Polish ? If yes, you should be familiar with a special sound SHCH ( does not exist in English). Traditionally such names use this sound and appropriate letter for it - Leshchinski. It comes from a forest plant lishchyna.

The word bursa needs much more additional explanations and talks.

Hannia, wow !! You found Brokgauz and Efron encyclopedia , It is still the best. I want to try it immediately....

Serhii.

[Edited by Serhii on 23rd February 2006 at 22:51]