still want to be in the EU?

[Zbyszek]

OK., let us set Kielce as a starting point. Kielce is a town in central Poland where 42 Jews were killed in 1946, just after the end of WWII. It was an abominable criminal act of angry mob, based on false accusation of one boy. Jewish sources, however fail to add that the Jewish families lived in a building reserved for infamous Security Office installed in Poland by Stalin (bespieka) and some of them were bespieka functionaries and were armed.
Kielce pogrom was made known more than many other similar ugly events taking place in Eastern Europe at that time (e.g. Budapest pogroms).
What is the most important – there was an instant prosecution and execution of nine most brutal perpetrators in a few days after the pogrom had happened. No one in Poland dares say that fight with bespieka agents and their families was an act of bravery or heroism.
Now, we have Bandera and his fight. He and his UPA colleagues like Roman Dmytro Klachkivsky nicknamed as Klym Sawur issued orders eliminating thousands of innocent Polish, Jewish, Russian and in many, many cases Ukrainian civilians, based on false accusation or simply on pure blind national hatred. Bandera, like Machiavelli, seemed to be devoted to one of his saying “It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.” And I am sure that the most of Ukrainians, including the Western ones still simply do not know the dark side of Bandera and terrifying butchery score of the UPA. Srebrnica massacre becomes pale when compared with the Volhynia Red Nights 1943.
I know, almost every freedom fighter has blood on his hand. Bandera, however, could be drowned in blood of the innocent.
For the forumers who would like to know a little more about BAndera, please read Wikipedia but English and not only Ukrainian version for Bandera's curriculum vitae.

[Ukrcossack]

Do you regard Wikipedia as a source of a reliable info? I don't deny agression of Ukrainian peasants against Poles, which is completely understandable. Polish government destroyed around 200 Ukrainian churches and converted 150 into Roman Catholic. Polish policies of Polonization closed the door for any Ukrainian to get education. Pacification lead to imprisonment of many politicians and cultural leaders, whom you called "terrorists". Polish opened Bereza Kartuska concentration camp in 1934, where 387 Ukrainians were murdered. Read about it and conditions people lived in while staying there by googling Polski Sanacyjny Oboz Koncentrcyjny, where they were forbidden even to sh*t and beaten mercilessly for not being able to retain oneself. In 1938 there were 4500 Ukrainians, men and women. Polish strzelcy mobs were roaming around villages terrorizing people and burning Ukrainian libraries. Most of the leaders UPA, including Dmytro Klyachkiwkyj and Roman Shukhewych were held there. Ukrainian high schools were reduced from 440 to 8 in less than 20 years. In 1930s Polish governement sent to Volyn' c. 300,000 (c.100,000 - Polish source) Polish osadnik with families, who were veterans of previous wars. Guess whose land they settled in? All that and taking consideration of attrocities committed by NKWD and Nazis who plundered everything around during WWII, you might envision what people felt like. If there were orders you are mentioning, I don't defend them at all. But the problem is Poles are celebrating AK veterans whereas they murdered around 20,000 Ukrainians and one can see them in every Pulaski parade around the world. Nobody on Ukrainian side jumps up to shut your mouth, correct? And please, don't tell me century old BS about retaliations. Because retaliations were caused by some other retaliations. All wouldn't have happened if Poles could have lived like civilized people on Ukrainian lands. Just look at the history of any other century of our relations: Poles always were trying to eliminate all Ukrainian, starting with the Orthodox churches in 1600s and ending with everyday spoken language, prohibiting any social advancement without conversion. History lessons seem to pass you by.

[Zbyszek]

Cossack, you missed the point. I do not say about PL-UA grievances. I am only trying to say that involvement in ethnic cleansing, never mind how explained, precludes moral right of Bandera to become a hero.

[Ukrcossack]

Me too, I am only trying to say for Poland to remove the veterans of AK from parades and monuments and then come with ideas who is and who is not a Ukrainian hero. Before that Poland is better to mind its own business and stop playing these double-faced games. Everyone is long ago bored and tired.

[Lvivske]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

For the forumers who would like to know a little more about BAndera, please read Wikipedia but English and not only Ukrainian version for Bandera's curriculum vitae.

the wiki article is alright but still needs a lot of work, and is constantly under attack from biased Poles wishing to distort historical truths and push their POV

it's a real pain in the ass for those of us who try to write good historical articles

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Lvivske

the wiki article is alright but still needs a lot of work, and is constantly under attack from biased Poles wishing to distort historical truths and push their POV

it's a real pain in the ass for those of us who try to write good historical articles

Yes, I would agree that it is not easy to write good and balanced historical articles. I am sure that the 'bandera' topic is controversial for Ukrainians in the first place. Two successive, democratically elected Ukrainian presidents can not agree on the subject - then how ordinary people can?
I attended lectures of dr. Polishchuk and I trust his account. He is Western Ukrainian and he stressed many times that UPA employed VERY young boys forming UPA's bespieka for its dirty work aimed at Poles and then Ukrainians. What shocked me the most was high number of Ukrainians subjected to UPA's terror both in Volhynia and Galicia 1943-1944. UPA usually did not ask for in the recruitment process- the bespieka soldiers came and gave a young boy an appalling ultimatum. Bandera personally believed in terror as the most efficient method in achieving political goals. Bandera gave the OUN a new terror-oriented impulse, aimed at eliminating moderate Polish and Ukrainian activists seeeking paths of understanding like Tadeusz Hołowko, Iwan Babij, Sydir Twerdochlib.

[stepanstas]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

Yes, I would agree that it is not easy to write good and balanced historical articles. I am sure that the 'bandera' topic is controversial for Ukrainians in the first place. Two successive, democratically elected Ukrainian presidents can not agree on the subject - then how ordinary people can?
I attended lectures of dr. Polishchuk and I trust his account. He is Western Ukrainian and he stressed many times that UPA employed VERY young boys forming UPA's bespieka for its dirty work aimed at Poles and then Ukrainians. What shocked me the most was high number of Ukrainians subjected to UPA's terror both in Volhynia and Galicia 1943-1944. UPA usually did not ask for in the recruitment process- the bespieka soldiers came and gave a young boy an appalling ultimatum. Bandera personally believed in terror as the most efficient method in achieving political goals. Bandera gave the OUN a new terror-oriented impulse, aimed at eliminating moderate Polish and Ukrainian activists seeeking paths of understanding like Tadeusz Hołowko, Iwan Babij, Sydir Twerdochlib.

How about this for history? Use facts.

Fact: Bandera stood for Ukrainian independence
Fact: Bandera declared Ukrainian independence
Fact: Bandera was arrested by the Nazi

There is no real proof of any links.