Central and Eastern Europe: Ukraine – Ethics stuck in the middle

[V-G]

Kathy,

My father dealt with a very large number of "businessmen" in Ukraine. Seeing how his clients were making money allowed him to categorize them into three categories:
1. Bandits
2. Mafia
3. Businessmen (connected to mafia).

He always hated Bandits because it is their kind that would steal from orphanage and try to make money on just about anything. They have no respect for anything and think they are above the law (he never defended one, he would always ask them to choose another lawyer).

Such people will get what is coming to them. If they get caught and go to prison they are not the kind that will have a good life there. Mafia is different.

What I am trying to say is that although such news are very dramatic in nature this is the kind of problem that will be fixed. I can't say the same about corruption... it seems deeply embedded into the way of life.

I don't know your take on the issue, but I see Ukrainians as followers of the Western world. If they see foreign companies behave a certain way they may just follow the lead.

[Max_the_Highlander]

You guys are deadly wrong. The article is quite correct but it's written by normal people and pictures Ukrainian business rather objectively.

There are problems but the growth is obvious. Not all business people in Ukraine come from commies or mafia. It's ugly distoreted opinion, the Russian TV shows the things very similar way but it's ordered lie. Kathy and V-G, you are not business people, it's not your area. You are just salary people as maximum. May be you just don't see enough and can't spot the things in business World.

Many foreign "businessmen" come to Ukraine with aim to produce the child porno videos, to organize narco traffic, to create another MLM pyramid. There many such cases and they will be. Of course if let's say a criminal comes to Ukraine he sees everywhere "bandits & mafia" (what is the difference between them, btw?). That's because he exists in such environment and has not access to cleaner and higher places.

Everywhere there is criminality and there is business, sometimes they are connected, in Americas too. You just put things too simply. Obviously living in other part of globe you have not trustworthy information and you both are too lazy to find it even in Internet.

It's just case of you blindness and bias and the situation in Ukraine is much better. The EU is ready to give us the associated memebrship, the talks successfully continue and may this is also the sign that many Western countries trust the Ukraine.

They trust because they know. Ignaramuses of all kinds blame Ukraine because they are blind and don't use anything except the own shortcuts.

[Kathy]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

. . Kathy and V-G, you are not business people, it's not your area. You are just salary people as maximum.

No, you are wrong. I am self employed.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Kathy, OK... but you need to renew your database. The things are not so dark.

V-G, I still think the biggest idiot here is you. I didn't call in my post someone "idiot", my language is OK. Ingnoramus? For sure.

For example, System Capital Management is Ukrainian company, it belongs to Renat Ahmetov, Ukrainian oligarch, the owner of "Shahtar" football club.

Oops such experinced guy just didn't spot that!

What do you know about Ukrainian business at all? What is VAT? What is "united tax"? Where can you gain the status of enterpreneur?

You dont know anything about Ukrainian business but you judge whole the country with blind assurance of ignoramus.

[Kathy]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

Kathy, OK... but you need to renew your database. The things are not so dark.

I have no idea what that means.

I will respond to your other posts at a later date. However, everyone living in Canada knows what VAT is. We have a similar tax called GST.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Kathy, I addressed more to V-G in this reply. The question about VAT was directed him. You may not reply those questions, they are for kids.

As about the databases I think I was clear. You obviously have not very new information. I already heard it a hundred of years ago - commies to businesspeople. So ancient.[/i]

Forget about that, to become the businessman in Ukraine is easy as pie and so many folks who never were connected with commies got that status for 3 days. People come to business from offices, universities, sport teams, factories, just from the street. It's free and cheap

Ukrainian business has absolutelly other problems then the origin of players and their capitals. Who does care that? Money don't smell and that's all over the world.]

[Kathy]

Kathy, I addressed more to V-G in this reply. The question about VAT was directed him. You may not reply those questions, they are for kids.

Well, I will reply for the kid (V-G) again, though he is perfectly capable of answering it himself. V-G lived in the UK, so he had first hand experience of shelling out cash for VAT.


As about the databases I think I was clear. You obviously have not very new information. I already heard it a hundred of years ago - commies to businesspeople. So ancient.

Earlier this year, a Ukrainian magazine listed the 50 richest Ukrainians. Now, have a look at that list and tell me:

1. How many of those listed are not former ranking communists/children/in-laws of ranking communists.

2. How many of those listed built their own enterprises, with their own capital/own ideas, rather than stealing "privatized" or state assets?

3. How many of those listed were not members of government, who used their positions for personal gain/the gain of their surrounding supporters?

Forget about that, to become the businessman in Ukraine is easy as pie and so many folks who never were connected with commies got that status for 3 days. People come to business from offices, universities, sport teams, factories, just from the street. It's free and cheap.

As it is almost everywhere in capitalist or mixed capitalist/socialist systems. But I'm not referring to babas selling produce at Beserabsky Rynok, or someone selling clothing, etc., or foreigners with capital, or even small business owners. I'm referring to those who control the levers of economic growth. What you have is not "capitalism" but oligarchic monopolies. As does Russia.

Ukrainian business has absolutelly other problems then the origin of players and their capitals. Who does care that? Money don't smell and that's all over the world.

Money takes on the character of its owners.

There is an interesting theory expounded by a number of influential economists that that most productive economies are those based on common law principles. It is an interesting theory, in that it looks at factors other than capital in the creation and preservation of wealth. Ultimately, capital flows to stablility. An oligarchic system is inherently unstable, and it suppresses the rule of law, which is a requirement for the growth of a middle class and economic/political stability. That is still missing in Ukraine