[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Serhii

Many people even here give very vivid examples to you ( see above ) , but you can not see anything except your untie Ukrainian mantras.

In case you did not notice, I'm the only person who have quoted any kind of hard numbers, who gave any kind of objective evidence.

Yes, we have problems and they are very serious.

That's basically what I was writing, it looks like you are agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.

But even now it would be very funny to say to someone about mighty Poland here in my industrial region.

For that matter, in my last post I've the word "average" to describe Poland's overall economical power. "Average" does't sound anything like "mighty" to me.

So panie, gulaj lasem bendzesz zdrawy and perhaps it will heel you from your serious phobias towards Ukraine

Do you think that the UNDP (makers of HDI), CIA or FT also suffer from "serious phobias toward Ukraine"?
Try to look objectively at yourself and see the rather obvious immaturity of your position.

Originally Posted by Hannia

Michael,

As per usual you manage to back up your information w/ questionable documentation.

Most of the HDI data used for the report you make reference to is derived largely from 2005 or earlier,
thus indicating an HDI for 2005.

Ok... and what does it change? 2005 was a mere 4 years ago, it's not that much time, and so far nobody has referenced any evidence showing that Ukraine made some kind of noticeable progress during those 4 years, while I've posted evidence claiming that it has recently lost 20% of it's GDP.

Originally Posted by Kathy

By all indicators, Poland's economy is stronger than that of Ukraine's. Its GDP is two and a half times higher, its unemployment rate is lower, the number of people living in poverty is less than half that of Ukraine, its government debt is lower. So on all those counts, I don't think Michael's facts can be disputed.

I think Poland's government functions much better than does Ukraine's. Its politicians are less corrupt, and appear to be working for the country rather than their own wealth. I never read about Polish oligarchs, the way we read about Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs.

I agree, although I must say that IMO while the Polish politicians and officials are less corrupt than Ukrainian ones, they are still corrupt to a sizeable extent.

I think it's the same with economy, I remember how I have met a Ukrainian girl from Kryvyi Rog, who was not a illegal worker but a very good college student who came to Poland for some conference and she told me "it would be very good if [economy] was in Ukraine as it is in Poland". My first thought was something like "ouch, if THIS is very good for them, then matters are very, very hard in Ukraine".

Where I would fault Michael, and has been pointed out by Zbyszek, is in Micheal's characterization of Ukrainians as seemingly subhuman, as, in his words "savages" and brutes. I think that is an insult to the majority of Ukrainians, who are cultured, and to those who scrambling to put food on the table and to just survive.

I think it should be noted that I've simply informed about the existence of a certain stereotype about Ukrainians, I've proven this (it's existence) in the post #17 in this thread, quoting a few different sources.

Then I have said that I do not believe in this stereotype, but unfortunately there is a small grain of truth here. Then I wrote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

When writing about "grain of truth", I meant for example the "liberal" stance of Ukrainians toward mass murders and people who commited them, who are often thought of as heroes by the Ukrainians.

I don't deny that the "Ukrainian butcher" stereotype is unjust and insulting, but at the same can't fail to notice that:

1) The stereotype exists due to horrific war crimes commited by Ukrainian nationalists upon Polish civilians.
2) The respect that many Ukrainians have toward those nationalists suggests that there is some kind of acceptance toward such deeds among Ukrainians.